Jocko Underground: If You're a High Performer, You Might Still Be Holding Yourself Back.

0:00 [SPEAKER_01]: This is the juggle underground podcast number two thirty five is sitting over the aquatrals We have some questions From the front line from the troopers from the trenches and we will provide answers if we can and if not we will at least provide some courses of action That you can follow to navigate whatever scenario you're going through [SPEAKER_00]: in business and in life. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, first question, talk on. [SPEAKER_00]: I managed a rock star employee whose ego and emotional reactions may be holding him back. [SPEAKER_00]: Recently, he worked hard on a project and got cancelled. [SPEAKER_00]: And that got cancelled and became visibly frustrated.

0:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Another time, a leader requested revisions to his analysis, and he shut down. [SPEAKER_00]: I've explained that changing priorities, setbacks, and miscommunications are part of teamwork. [SPEAKER_00]: Like consistently, praise his performance, but worry, his reactions will limit his growth. [SPEAKER_00]: How do I address his ego without triggering the exact emotional response I'm trying to correct? [SPEAKER_00]: How do I help him detach, accept setbacks, and become more resilient? [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so, first of all, let me set some expectations out of the gate, people take a long time to change. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they can sometimes occasionally be changed by a traumatic event, they get fired.

1:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they might not change a good way, by the way, they get fired, they get dumped, they have some catastrophic thing happen to them, they can change. [SPEAKER_01]: Like someone someone that's an alcoholic might get in a car accident, DUI, and stop drinking. [SPEAKER_01]: Right, like something like that can happen. [SPEAKER_01]: But, [SPEAKER_01]: most of the time even the drunk person that gets a DUI and gets an accident most of the time they still drink they keep drinking so i just want to set the expectations that you know the way that people's minds are formed their difficult to change which is i'm not trying to say that we don't have [SPEAKER_01]: we can't be manipulated because we certainly can't.

2:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's different for me to get to change your beliefs than it is to me for me to change the way you perceive yourself on the way you behave. [SPEAKER_01]: So I got to lay that out there. [SPEAKER_01]: I've, I've, I had a new guy one time in one of my [SPEAKER_01]: and we did everything to make him be quiet, to make him just not be so loud all the time, always have a, always running his mouth about something. [SPEAKER_01]: Good guy too, not a bad guy. [SPEAKER_01]: This is just like he had a personality thing. [SPEAKER_01]: And we did everything. [SPEAKER_01]: We tried ostracizing him. [SPEAKER_01]: We tried bringing him into the fold. [SPEAKER_01]: We tried beating him up. [SPEAKER_01]: We tried physical violence.

2:53 [SPEAKER_01]: We tried positive reinforcement. [SPEAKER_01]: We did all the different things. [SPEAKER_01]: The different things. [SPEAKER_01]: The different things. [SPEAKER_01]: He was always just like that. [SPEAKER_01]: He couldn't. [SPEAKER_01]: He could not restrain himself. [SPEAKER_01]: So, and I'm just using every methodology that I know of. [SPEAKER_01]: Then look, did he make some progress over the decade that he was in the teams? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he did. [SPEAKER_01]: But fundamentally, he was still the same dude. [SPEAKER_01]: So, very difficult. [SPEAKER_01]: How can we do it? [SPEAKER_01]: Over time, we've got to be able to release chips with people, trustless from respect and influence and care. [SPEAKER_01]: We've got to give those things to people, set we build good relationships. [SPEAKER_01]: So we listen to them, so they listen to us. [SPEAKER_01]: We treat them with respect, so they treat us with respect.

3:34 [SPEAKER_01]: We allow them to influence us, so they will allow us to influence them. [SPEAKER_01]: We show them that we care about them. [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're doing. [SPEAKER_01]: So eventually, eventually, hopefully, you get to a point you can have an honest debrief with someone, which, by the way, is very, very difficult to get to a point you can have an honest debrief with someone. [SPEAKER_01]: And even then you got to be careful, even that it's better off using some kind of an indirect approach and asking some honest questions like, hey man, hey echo, when you were in that meeting like, and you were kind of berating people, what do you think that sounded like? [SPEAKER_01]: When you were talking to Fred, what do you think that sounded like? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that? [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that helps like the mission? [SPEAKER_01]: or, you know, heck, when you are kind of raising your voice, like, how do you think that landed with the team?

4:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, being able to have some of those or being able to ask some earnest questions, you already have to have an established relationship that's strong. [SPEAKER_01]: Cause otherwise, I don't care how it may do with the team. [SPEAKER_01]: The team needs to get on board of one of them, you know, something that the guild just get that. [SPEAKER_01]: over time, hopefully you'll get close enough that you can increase directness a little bit if needed. [SPEAKER_01]: Usually isn't needed by the way. [SPEAKER_01]: Usually isn't needed. [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a really good relationship, I shouldn't say usually isn't needed. [SPEAKER_01]: It usually people pick up on it, but even that is a strong statement. [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times I've been writing people's face with some [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking, wow, I hope they don't, I hope they don't overreact what I'm about to indirectly ask.

5:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And it'll just go right over their head, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, how do you think that landed with the team? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's not really my concern, you know, like, you get to these most, we're like, okay, this person has no idea that this indirect approach that I'm taking is not landing at all. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you start to have to [SPEAKER_01]: figure out what the ROI is between me escalating the directness with echo and what it does to our relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: Because if I'm like, dude, you come across like an asshole and you're like, what do you call us? [SPEAKER_01]: You don't even know what it's like. [SPEAKER_01]: And all of a sudden, I can't even say anything. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you up. [SPEAKER_01]: I just sent back our relationship by two years. [SPEAKER_01]: I might have been six months away from you listening to me and now I'm two years back. [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm two years in six months back.

5:52 [SPEAKER_01]: So you got to figure out what the ROI is on being able to be direct with people. [SPEAKER_01]: And how that works out, the best possible, the best tool for people to change their behavior is when they see it, when they identify it themselves. [SPEAKER_01]: And what we can do with the best thing for us to do is help them. [SPEAKER_01]: guide them to seeing it. [SPEAKER_01]: Not punching them in the face with it, but setting up scenarios where they start to see what it is, how they appear, how other people perceive them.

6:32 [SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of the best way to go about this, to just continue to focus on the relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: So as you build the relationship and this individual starts to listen to you more, [SPEAKER_01]: And you can say, listen, man, you're doing awesome. [SPEAKER_01]: As I look at get you get promoted There's some shortfalls, man. [SPEAKER_01]: What do you mean they're shortfalls? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, like we ran a 360 survey and let me show you what the numbers look like for what people perceive you as You know, so maybe we do a 360 survey so they can see some of this stuff and again you got to be caution with that Well, of course these people are idiots. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the best freaking sales person. [SPEAKER_01]: We're I'm the best employee. [SPEAKER_01]: We got when you look at the numbers of course They're all gonna be jealous and say negative stuff.

7:15 [SPEAKER_01]: That's so crazy people are [SPEAKER_01]: That's how crazy people are. [SPEAKER_01]: People with big egos, very difficult to get through that ego. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so insecure about something in their soul. [SPEAKER_01]: So I have to give you a course of action. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm giving you the negatives. [SPEAKER_01]: It's very difficult to change someone. [SPEAKER_01]: Though, of course, of action, as you continue to build a relationship with someone, you prioritize that at overtime, hopefully you can get to a point where you have some level of influence, but it is not easy to get an egotistical rock star person to recognize their own shortfalls and make corrective behaviors.

7:56 [SPEAKER_01]: make correct, take corrective measures with their behaviours. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a challenge. [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, just so you know, these people exist in all kinds of, in everywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: They exist everywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: Never minded, they just everywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: And what you end up doing is you have to do, you have to understand the terrain, the human terrain. [SPEAKER_01]: and how can you mitigate his negative impact on other people? [SPEAKER_01]: How can you capitalize on the fact that he's got a big ego? [SPEAKER_01]: How can you make sure he doesn't rub other people the wrong way? [SPEAKER_01]: Don't put him in charge of things that he's going to have a big, a huge amount of interaction with other people and his ego is going to really cause problems. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what can you do as a leader to, you know, you get a guitar?

8:37 [SPEAKER_01]: There's definitely guitars, but you don't, you know, not every guitar is perfect. [SPEAKER_01]: Jack White, you know, Jack White is Jack White, or Billy Corg, Corg, Corg, Corg, Corg, Corg, he has a guitar that makes like a weird noise, and same with Jack White. [SPEAKER_01]: We are electrical noises from some malfunction of the guitar, and you can hear him on songs. [SPEAKER_01]: but they take that and utilize it, make it positive. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what we're doing as leaders most of the time. [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, over time can you maybe work on that fret board and you can get that buzz to go away from the guitar and you end up with a better sounding guitar? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's gonna take a long time. [SPEAKER_01]: Gotta have a lot of knowledge. [SPEAKER_01]: There's some risk by the way, you might ruin the guitar because now you're pulling it apart and bending the neck so you might break it or do you just learn?

9:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, it's gonna make a little noise right there. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna learn how to use that tone for fitted in the song. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what we're doing, man. [SPEAKER_01]: I wish I had some like, oh, you know, just person like that. [SPEAKER_01]: Look, do I talk about the fact that, hey, if you got some of the big ego, you can put them in charges or something that's slightly outside of their capability and then they're gonna have to ask for help or they're gonna get humbled by the situation. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, those are all procedures that I have literally used before. [SPEAKER_01]: But this is, when you get to this extreme case, the rock star, big giant ego, big emotional reactions, this is a, this is a, a prototypical human that we know, we know these guys very difficult to change. [SPEAKER_01]: Very, I, you know, an extreme ownership I wrote about the two guys that got fired from a task unit, one was a task unit commander, one was a between commander.

10:14 [SPEAKER_01]: They both got fired because they couldn't get along. [SPEAKER_01]: Even after the commanding officer was like, hey, listen, you guys have to work together. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not getting rid of either one of you. [SPEAKER_01]: You have to work together, figure it out over the weekend. [SPEAKER_01]: They came into the over the weekend and said, nope, I can't work with this guy. [SPEAKER_01]: Nope, I can't work with this guy. [SPEAKER_01]: This, the commanding officer fired them both. [SPEAKER_01]: I went, I knew both of them. [SPEAKER_01]: I liked both of them. [SPEAKER_01]: Both good guys. [SPEAKER_01]: I went to one of them afterwards. [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, bro, what happened? [SPEAKER_01]: He said, yeah, that guy was just couldn't work with him. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you got fired. [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean, like you got fired. [SPEAKER_01]: No, we're kidding me. [SPEAKER_01]: From a single puttum. [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean, like that's terrible. [SPEAKER_01]: There's no, there's no, there's zero upside. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the most often you have the opportunity, the best job in the world to be a single puttum commander. [SPEAKER_01]: And you got fired.

10:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're not like, oh, I just totally screwed up. [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, it's like, no, I couldn't work with that guy. [SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy talk. [SPEAKER_01]: What was that guy doing? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, [SPEAKER_01]: molesting you like you know me like what's happening that you can't figure out a way this is another grown man Yeah, another grown seal and you say hey, dude. [SPEAKER_01]: I got some issues with the world the way you're interacting with me Let's talk about it. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a million ways to handle this [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like a heck. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't work with you anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: No, you figured out. [SPEAKER_01]: But here here I'm talking about grown men and neither one of them could say, you know what? [SPEAKER_01]: You're right. [SPEAKER_01]: It's on me. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll do a better job of building this relationship. [SPEAKER_01]: Cool. [SPEAKER_01]: We're going forward. [SPEAKER_01]: We carry on with our career. [SPEAKER_01]: No, you're both fired.

11:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: That's how it is. [SPEAKER_00]: So where do you go when you fired from the seal platoon? [SPEAKER_01]: How it depends on what you're getting fired for where did these get that particular individual the the guy that I talked to he ended up reloading and doing another Pultoon as a Pultoon commander and was successful. [SPEAKER_00]: What do you mean reloading? [SPEAKER_01]: Just He got kicked out of one Pultoon and then got put into another Pultoon. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, God. [SPEAKER_01]: He had to go through the work. [SPEAKER_00]: So I still may be sealed. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah [SPEAKER_01]: And the boss that got fired I think he kind of, I think he kind of was already moving in a direction where he's going to go into the civilian section and I think that's what he did. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I just did a lower earlier. [SPEAKER_00]: You're watching movie training day.

12:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I have, but I don't know what is intimately as you do. [SPEAKER_00]: It's too bad. [SPEAKER_00]: So basically he manipulates this new guy. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Into at the end of the day doing some crap stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: Right. [SPEAKER_00]: Was actually like if you do it for good purposes, it's more leadership than in this manipulation, but basically he would anytime he wanted He'd use some other stuff too, but this one specific tactic was anytime he either did something good or wanted him to do something good for his own interest [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and he did something good or wanted him to do something good. [SPEAKER_00]: He would hype him up and kind of paint this picture of the future this golden future You know like he'd tell him like you got the magic eye and like you want my job.

12:59 [SPEAKER_00]: You got it, you know like this kind of stuff like you Was special. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, yeah big time [SPEAKER_00]: So you do that you could see it in the movie. [SPEAKER_00]: They do a really good time. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a really good movie Who directed that movie? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, full-quart. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and full-quart. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, he does turn it a list. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yep. [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. [SPEAKER_00]: That's my man, right there So he uh, do you want to meet him? [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I thought we could hook that up. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, from Dr. Jack Carr talk to Cp Yeah, make it happen. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, he does good work. [SPEAKER_00]: Really good work [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so you could see it too in the movie where, you know, Jake is the guy's name that didn't you guys? [SPEAKER_00]: And you could see him like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah [SPEAKER_00]: But let's do this this and start with you know something small kind of a thing where like yeah, I could if I could do that like small violation [SPEAKER_00]: No, like, let's say they're doing something, but let's say they're on an African two confrontational, and whatever, be like, okay, this is what you're gonna do.

14:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the cheat code right there. [SPEAKER_00]: Don't confront it, you just take it into your mind. [SPEAKER_00]: And we're gonna use it later somehow. [SPEAKER_00]: But don't be confrontational, you let it slide for a little bit. [SPEAKER_00]: You seem saying, so it's like, hey, I can do that one thing. [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, he's bolstering himself on the inside because he's gonna take over shit, seems saying, so you paint this golden future as a tactic. [SPEAKER_00]: And then he'll just, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. [SPEAKER_00]: He's not confrontational after a while. [SPEAKER_00]: He's not, whatever, because he's playing that game to fulfill that future. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so is that really what he tells him? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, don't be so confrontational. [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [SPEAKER_01]: But as he, like, came in, we can't, like, go completely by the book on this one. [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_00]: I switched it over to this guy's question on the undergrad. [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, because like, guys, you know, whether they be confrontational or emotional, whatever.

14:50 [SPEAKER_00]: on the movie he's just saying like he's doing small corrupt things and then he's saying no no this is like you didn't know this this is how it is in here this is how we do it and this is why you got the golden eye you could bro I see you just I see you just running these guys you know like all this stuff so every like little small corrupt like thing he do he'd kind of put this this wave this like what he call this smoking mirrors kind of a thing does it does it does the [SPEAKER_01]: So, that is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocco Underground podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to continue to listen, [SPEAKER_01]: go to jockelunderground.com and subscribe and we're doing this, we're doing this to mitigate our reliance on external platforms so we are not subject to their control and we are doing this so that we can support the jockel podcast which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way but we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control [SPEAKER_01]: And we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct connections, better communications with us.

16:09 [SPEAKER_01]: And to do that, we are building a website right now where we'll build the utilize to strengthen this legion of troopers that are in the game with us. [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you, it's jacco underground.com. [SPEAKER_01]: It costs $8 and $18 a month. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you can't afford to support us, [SPEAKER_01]: We can still support you, just email assistance at jockelonagram.com and we'll get you taken care of until then we will see you mobilized underground.