522: How Discipline and Leadership Will Make You Survive 40 Months as a POW.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is Jocco podcast number 522 with echo trials in May, Jocco will link a good evening, Jocco.

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[SPEAKER_01]: In April 1942, this officer was shot down and captured after sending out this warning from his patrolling sea plane that a large force of Japanese worships was approaching Salon.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Throughout his three and a half years as a prisoner of war, wing commander, virtual.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As senior Allied officer in the prisoner of war camps in which he was located continually displayed, the utmost concern for the welfare of his fellow prisoners.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On many occasions with complete disregard for his own safety, he prevented as far as possible Japanese officials of various camps from sadistically beating his men and denying prisoners the medical attention which they so urgently needed.

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[SPEAKER_01]: was when in the negato camp, he called a sit-down strike and protest against ill-treatment of his men.

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[SPEAKER_01]: On another occasion when the Japanese wanted to send some sick prisoners to war to work.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Wing Commander Birchall found it necessary at great personal risk to forcibly prevent the Japanese non-commissioned officer in charge from making these prisoners work.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As a result, Wing Commander Birchall spent several days in solitary confinement.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Nevertheless, the sick prisoners of war did not have to work.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Knowing that each time he forcibly intervened on behalf of his men, he would receive brutal punishment when Commander Birchel continually endeavored to improve the lot of his fellow prisoners.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He also maintained detailed records of personnel in his camps, along with death certificates of deceased personnel.

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[SPEAKER_01]: the consistent gallantry and glowing devotion to his fellow prisoners of war that this officer displayed throughout his lengthy period of imprisonment are in keeping with the finest traditions of the royal Canadian Air Force.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that right there is the citation, making air Commodore, Leonardo Bertuel, an officer of the order of the British Empire in 1946.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So this guy Leonard Bertuel was born July 6, 1915 in Ontario, Canada.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He graduated from the Royal Military College of Canada in 1937.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He eventually deployed to Salon, which is modern-day Sri Lanka, in 1942, in April 1942.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He was out patrolling into sea plain.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He cited a major Japanese fleet that you just heard about in that citation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He radioed back intelligence to headquarters.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It kind of gave the British forces a heads-up of this imminent attack.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But his aircraft were shot down, some of his crew members were killed, the him and the remaining survivors were captured, and he spent about 40 months in Japanese, various Japanese prison camps.

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[SPEAKER_01]: of the Order of the British Empire is also awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for initially reporting that Japanese attack.

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[SPEAKER_01]: After the war, continued his career eventually became chief of air operations in the Royal Canadian Air Force.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It became common down to the Royal Military College of Canada and he played significant roles in Canada's participation in NATO and

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[SPEAKER_01]: at York University, but in September of 1997, he gave a speech to the Canadian forces school of aerospace studies up in Winnipeg, and I found a copy of this speech.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I read through it and it's just it's freaking classic so much good information in there.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The the copy that I used for this from the Canadian Air Force Journal volume two issue one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a winter of 2009.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to be reading from that great just they just took the speech and put it in there in writing and it's so many good lessons from this thing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So, again, here's this speech from a Commodore, air Commodore Leonard Birchell, and he starts off with a little bit of humor.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I apologize for my copious notes, but at my age, and this past July became 82 years young, there are three serious losses which you encounter in your physical capabilities.

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[SPEAKER_01]: First, your eyesight grows dim, and you will note rather strong lenses in my glasses.

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[SPEAKER_01]: third, and I'll be damned if I can never remember what the third one is.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thus, I'm gonna stick closely to my text, or I will wander all over the place.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, there is a fourth serious loss in our physical capabilities, which we old-chaps encounter, but we do our utmost not to even think about that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: One let alone discuss it as whenever we do, all we do is sit around and cry.

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[SPEAKER_01]: you will note that is necessary for me to take frequent tips of water.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is due to the fact that during my indoctrination into Japanese culture, which was administered with severity by clubs of various sizes all too often, I would zig when I should have zagged and the damage to my throat is finally caught up with me resulting in my having to have a series of drastic throat operations and intense radiation treatments leaving me with a perpetual dry mouth and throat.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I ask you, please bear with me.

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[SPEAKER_01]: 82-year-old guy clearly very sharp, I'll be giving this speech on the fast forward a little bit.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Napoleon once said, there are no bad men, only bad officers.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The question then I, the question then is, have I been a good or bad officer?

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[SPEAKER_01]: And here, there is no set criteria or standard.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Some believe that the best measure of success is the rank you attain, but I do not accept this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the finest men I've met served with and held in the highest regard were not necessarily those who were the most senior.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is something that happens all the time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like people think, oh, he was a general, or he was an admiral, admiral.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He must be an awesome leader.

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[SPEAKER_01]: More like, not so much.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot judge the the ability or the traits of a person based on the rank because there's some of the things that you have to do some of the there's there's like a whole there's a whole path you can take to achieve high rank that has nothing to do with good leadership it actually has to do with like screwing people over and looking out for yourself that happens now sometimes usually usually they get caught at a certain point and they don't make it as far as they want to

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[SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes they do.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sometimes they do and even they don't make it as far as they want to they still made it further than they should have So you got to watch out for that

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[SPEAKER_01]: One thing I do recognize as a measure of success is leadership.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As everyone I have held in highest team has had that quality and this I believe to be essential for success in any walk of life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This guy's talking about leadership.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As a member of the Armed Forces and regardless of rank, the opportunities for development and use of leadership are immense and the satisfaction you will derive is equally so.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's an old added, however, that you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Or the other version, you can lead a horse to drink, but you can't make him water, which I don't really understand that 100%.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Thus, while you will have these opportunities, the success you will achieve depends entirely on the amount of effort you put forth.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing is ever free in this life or hand it to you on a plate.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The price you must pay is hard work, total effort, and self sacrifice.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're talking about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hard work, total effort and self-sacrifice.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Can you make any sense to that?

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[SPEAKER_01]: The other version you can lead a horse to drink, but you can't make him water.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Is there it?

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[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if there's a term for maybe watering a horse means like it's getting water.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like drinking.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's like a more cowboy way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll have to check with Iris Gardner and see if a watering

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, yeah, no, big question mark for me to know.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, uh, going on here, I would now like to give you my concept of leadership and the reasons for my beliefs.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I noticed that point number four, and he had talked earlier that they've got, they were given all this thing to read that had eight points of leadership.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so he kind of refers back to that a little bit.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He says, I noticed that point number four of the teaching point is leadership versus management, which would obviously call for a definition of those terms.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The most succinct one I have heard for leadership is being able to tell someone to go to hell and have them look forward to the trip.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

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[SPEAKER_01]: That's fired up, you know, what you got your boys, you got to tell them hey, we're gonna go to do this thing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna suck and guys like let's go That's leadership as opposed to Whereas the one for management is being able to keep three balls in the air with one hand while protecting your own with the other

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[SPEAKER_01]: So the manager's looking out for himself, you know, got to move these balls around over here and with one hand, but I'm gonna protect my own balls with my other hand.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you ever have to lead troops into combat and I pray this will never happen.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You will find that you appear before your men stripped of all insignia and outward signs of authority to command.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So there you go, when you're in combat leadership,

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[SPEAKER_01]: your strier naked, your stripped of all your authority, all your outward signs, all your insignia.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is very close to where up at the council and I was talking about basically like the primordial order of leadership and how there's just like a packing order in the world.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not paying attention to that and you think you're higher on that packing order than you actually are, it's going to be problematic.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you know where you are, if you know where you are and other people, you see yourself the same way other people see you, you'll be okay.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like if I'm like, hey, I'm not quite the best, but I'm in this position because I whatever, I went to college, or I've been here longer, or whatever the case may be.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, okay, I know I don't really deserve to be here, but here I am, you'll be okay.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But when you think like you're damn right, I'm here, that's what we have a problem.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Because you don't get that, that insignia is not real.

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[SPEAKER_02]: I can see it, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Your leadership is judged not by your rank, but by whether your men are completely confident that you have the character knowledge and training that they can trust you with their lives.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now men are shrewd judges of their leaders, especially when their lives are at stake.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And hence, your character and knowledge must be such that they are prepared.

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[SPEAKER_01]: to follow you, to trust your judgment, and carry out your commands.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Man, it's so, people, leaders all the time, very common that they underestimate how shrewd of judges their troops are, and they think they can get away with things, and they think that the team doesn't notice, oh, it's no big deal, I just kind of look out for myself over here, a little bit, no one will see, oh, they'll see, they will absolutely see.

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[SPEAKER_01]: who was it telling us to, oh yeah, Andrew Paul told the story at the master, they were like getting using buds and they were getting, they were just waiting for child.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was cold, they're wet and it's cold.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And like one of the officers moved out of the shade into the sunlight and was a giving orders and direct people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's thinking, no, no, no, no, no, but the class is like, bro, check that out, that dude.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He's just trying to look out for himself.

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[SPEAKER_01]: little tiny thing yeah didn't they call him sunshine they called him 10 it's sunshine continuing on let us now examine these two major things which the men look for in their leaders the first is character and here I believe

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[SPEAKER_01]: that the prime ingredient.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The absolute cornerstone is integrity.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Integrity is one of those words which many people keep in the desk drawer labeled too hard.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It is not a topic for the dinner table or cocktail party.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You can't buy it or sell it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: When supported with education, a person's integrity can give them something to rely on.

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[SPEAKER_01]: When their perception seems to blur, when rules and principles seem to waver, and when they are faced with hard choices of right or wrong, you know, that's really important.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that you, like let's say you're in combat.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's gonna be things you face in combat that are not from the book.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's no reference you can make.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like some shit happens that you couldn't predict, no one could predict, and it happened, and now you gotta deal with it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And you see, you can't rely on any instructions that you were given, you can't rely on the rules of engagement, you can't rule it, rely on the wall of armed conflict, you can't rely on the regulations that you're under, you can't rely on anything, because this is a weird thing that just happened.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, this happens, it business to what happens in life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody's gonna do some shit that you don't expect.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then it boils down to okay integrity.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Are you going to do the right thing right now?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Are you going to use good judgment?

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's something to keep them afloat when they are drowning.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If only for practical reasons is an attribute that should be kept at the very top of a young person's consciousness without personal integrity.

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[SPEAKER_01]: intellectual skills are worthless.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, personal integrity is like going out into the sun when everyone else is freezing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, that question that story was a good one because it really, like, brought to light that concept.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Because when you think about it, like, oh, yeah, this guy, so everyone was cold, everyone was standing in line, but that line happened to be in the shade, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And the guys are already cold.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, so this guy, like, kind of pretends.

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[SPEAKER_02]: That he has some stuff to do, you know, some orders to put out.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly right.

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[SPEAKER_02]: So, and how Andrew Paul explained, it was kind of like, you could tell he was just like making stuff up to do, you know, like keeping himself busy because he could do it from a position that wasn't in the shadows in the sun, so you could get warm or whatever.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And kind of when you think about your like also Andrew Paul said it was like a four meter square of sods.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like it might not have been so obvious if like it was just a little bit in the shade and it was a huge area That was on it, but I don't know using that little four meters or something.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's kind of like you know on the surface You're kind of like yeah, like who cares like what is that have to do with anything?

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[SPEAKER_02]: You know like I mean I would be more you'd think you do it if you weren't there and you didn't understand really the what you what you get from the actual experience You think oh well

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like it has no bearing on me, you know, like what should like should I be in this like it has no bearing, you know, but when you're there and you're in a cohesive group and you see someone just in principle, like, hey, I'm going to get this for me with a disregard for the rest of the group, you know, it kind of prads like a perfect little illustration of those situations, yeah, and not to mention the metaphor like of that spotlight.

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[SPEAKER_01]: going right on yeah he doesn't even realize he literally has a spotlight on him you know and the rest of the group is in the shade in the dark or whatever that's good continue on as the ancient Roman philosopher epictetus said in the field manual he produced for the Roman soldiers and approximately the year 50 AD it is better to die in hunger

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[SPEAKER_00]: exempt from guilt and fear that it is to live in affluence with perturbation, meaning like the the adjective, the anxiety, the guilt of what you've done.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's better to be cold and stand with the class than it is to be warm and freaking be guilty.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I will tell you that I think a lot of people when they make those little decisions,

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[SPEAKER_01]: they don't know.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They think that people don't see.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They're not like, oh, I don't care.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go get one.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They don't think like that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They think like, oh, I can get away with this.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why they allow themselves to do it when it's so obvious.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and in a way, I mean, this kind of point here is kind of like with the judgment thing a little bit of a change, but we talked about this too, where you can almost kind of understand like when it comes to just the nature of a person where You're right, he doesn't like let's say lieutenant sunshine, right, he's like, oh, I'm still going to do what I'm supposed to do, you know, I'm just going to sort of, you know, kind of like

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be a little bit warmer than the color outside the lines, just a little bit.

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to have no bearing on anything or whatever.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And they don't really, they're not detached, where they can't see themselves and how they look to others.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And this brought this big examples of this and small examples of this, like, and ever in between.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And we talked about this too, where it's like, yeah, when you, let's say someone video taped the whole scenario, just mean one wide shot, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's so, and then showed it to Lieutenant Sunshine, right?

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[SPEAKER_02]: Later, he'd be like, bro, I didn't realize I looked like that.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know how I felt, I know I felt like I wasn't gonna be train-o, and I just get a little warmer, that'll help me, you know, in my whole thing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And only got it, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying, you know, like, bro, I'm trying to do the best I can, kind of a thought, you know, whether that's a justification or not.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But when you see it all in the frame, you know, like the way other people see it, you're like, oh, bro, that looks way worse, you know?

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[SPEAKER_02]: And then it can kind of like add to that guilt, you know?

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[SPEAKER_02]: It's so bad.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But if you totally get away with it, it might have a little guilt.

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[SPEAKER_02]: But when you kind of detach or when it's, when it's brought into perspective, I think that's what you really do.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_02]: When people start calling you the tenets on such a thing.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, continue on this means that you must demonstrate the utmost honesty and everything you do in your dealings with superiors and subordinates alike both on and off duty.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It is this that inspires your men to carry out a similar integrity.

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[SPEAKER_01]: When they know your word is your bond, then confidence and trust will permeate the entire unit.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The men will feel they can come to you their leader with the bad news as well as the good news.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Never shoot the messenger as this will just discourage others from giving you honest feedback needed for you to command.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You must report the good, the bad, the, and the ugly up the chain of command to your superiors.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There is no substitute for honesty in our profession, what we do is just too important.

19:08.708 --> 19:24.147
[SPEAKER_01]: So that, that right there, like the way you're behaving as a leader is going to impact everything that everybody else does and telling the truth about what's happening and being open to receiving the truth without being mad about it.

19:24.367 --> 19:25.388
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what you have to do.

19:25.570 --> 19:35.748
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's that's a hard one, yes, the, um, that's like the old, like, oh, if I had a, I had a bookroom, I know, you know, you got a tell.

19:35.768 --> 19:36.248
[SPEAKER_01]: You got a tell.

19:36.268 --> 19:40.936
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's kind of hard, you know, and a lot of people say they want you to tell them, but they don't really want you to.

19:40.956 --> 19:41.277
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

19:41.337 --> 19:42.639
[SPEAKER_01]: They want you to pretend it's all good.

19:43.681 --> 19:45.925
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

19:45.905 --> 19:47.147
[SPEAKER_01]: a real disadvantage.

19:47.407 --> 20:01.084
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I kind of get some of that where people don't want to tell me they're too tired like they like this happened overseas, you know, I just didn't want to tell me like, hey, dude, I need a break or you know, so I always had to fish for that.

20:01.164 --> 20:10.596
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I kind of had to fish and I had to err on the side of like they're more tired than they're telling me they need whatever more than they're letting me know.

20:10.957 --> 20:11.237
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

20:11.217 --> 20:26.678
[SPEAKER_01]: Because people are oftentimes on very good behavior when I'm around, you know, everyone's taking ownership, everyone's covered moving, but it's difficult for that to be how people behave all the time, because that's facing these principles are simple, but they're not easy.

20:27.198 --> 20:36.414
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's actually if you can kind of separate them into actually two because like not that you way you're talking about is oh, that's real.

20:36.434 --> 20:44.128
[SPEAKER_02]: That's 100% real because you have like the standard of being, you know, where and everyone's trying to live up to that standard, right?

20:44.288 --> 20:50.539
[SPEAKER_02]: And if they admit their tired or admit their kind of cold or something like this where it kind of is like, oh man, you're not living up to the standard.

20:50.519 --> 20:53.386
[SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of it's not even really officially established.

20:53.406 --> 20:55.891
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just sort of out there It's not there.

20:56.032 --> 21:09.422
[SPEAKER_02]: Just kind of follows you are doing right exactly right so it can be hard in that way Yes, you know, and then you you're at risk of like compromising performance whatever But it's a little bit different than if I'm like hey

21:09.402 --> 21:25.588
[SPEAKER_02]: that decision you made like wasn't that good you know that's way hard that actually I don't know what's harder I guess it depends on who you are but it's different it is different like who's gonna step to joc once they he made a bad move and he shouldn't make that move in the future like brother that's kind of hard

21:25.568 --> 21:26.450
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, yeah.

21:26.551 --> 21:28.756
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's what that's what I always had to watch out for.

21:28.817 --> 21:41.029
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why me Establishing that hey, if I'm doing something wrong, let me know and whether it's a little tiny thing and life explains this really well It's the same way it was stoner, but

21:41.009 --> 21:43.494
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, from the beginning, I wasn't like, hey, we're doing it.

21:43.514 --> 21:44.536
[SPEAKER_01]: My wife was like, hey, well, what do you think?

21:44.556 --> 21:45.477
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you want to do it like that?

21:46.038 --> 21:47.721
[SPEAKER_01]: Because that way, they got used to.

21:47.782 --> 21:49.425
[SPEAKER_01]: They knew I wasn't going to like freak out.

21:49.445 --> 21:51.208
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't going to beat them down.

21:51.488 --> 21:52.731
[SPEAKER_01]: Matter of fact, I'm reading another book right now.

21:52.751 --> 21:57.439
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a military leader who is just shutting all this commander.

21:57.560 --> 21:59.423
[SPEAKER_01]: All this, uh, subordinate commander down.

21:59.403 --> 22:00.124
[SPEAKER_01]: just shutting them down.

22:00.164 --> 22:02.388
[SPEAKER_01]: And now they're all just like, well, I guess we're just going to do whatever he says.

22:02.949 --> 22:04.251
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's going to turn out well.

22:04.752 --> 22:04.872
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

22:04.892 --> 22:11.603
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to be very careful that when someone tells you something, you are so open minded to it, you're thankful.

22:11.763 --> 22:13.886
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to be thankful for it.

22:13.906 --> 22:18.293
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have to, as often as you can, you have to take their ideas and implement them.

22:18.313 --> 22:19.195
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like the goal.

22:19.475 --> 22:20.597
[SPEAKER_01]: You've heard me say this a thousand times.

22:20.717 --> 22:23.622
[SPEAKER_01]: My goal is when

22:23.602 --> 22:36.079
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether and by the way, it's not just my subordinates, my peers and my boss, my goals to use their idea and that what that does is it formulates and let's understand that, oh, I can come to them with a good bat in the ugly.

22:36.099 --> 22:36.320
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

22:37.101 --> 22:38.002
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's good.

22:38.022 --> 22:39.424
[SPEAKER_02]: You do do a good job with that.

22:39.824 --> 22:42.768
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, letting people kind of do their idea.

22:42.789 --> 22:44.130
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I want to do their idea.

22:44.331 --> 22:46.774
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, let's do.

22:46.754 --> 23:13.651
[SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because you'd be surprised, you know, like I've I've been in this outfit for a while You know even before all the you know books and all this other stuff and I see through that time Keep in mind I think you knew this like I didn't know you all this about you before when we just before let's say before to 2014 we'll say I didn't know any of this I just knew that you're in the military you're just some you're in charge of some training.

23:13.671 --> 23:14.652
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know training

23:14.632 --> 23:16.294
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and you're due to that's it.

23:16.314 --> 23:36.538
[SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of it more or less or whatever new about that guillotine And you know some personality stuff or whatever, but so I didn't know all this all this stuff So I just knew you as more of like not a boss scenario more of just like a training partner with some wisdom, you know hearing here and there kind of a thing

23:36.518 --> 23:49.944
[SPEAKER_02]: So in that very specific position and kind of in a way a unique position, I get to watch people just do backflips and switch personalities when you're around versus not around still right literally to this day just watch it.

23:50.024 --> 23:57.919
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, bro, but I know like I'm used to it now, but it is interesting because you do do a great job of like

23:57.899 --> 24:04.968
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like not getting mad and like you know, like if someone has bad news or you know Someone has some critiques.

24:04.988 --> 24:25.493
[SPEAKER_02]: You're just like yeah, you just roll right right with it But I think I'm used to it since I've kind of been around it for years and then some people They're just not quite it's almost like they don't get it quite yet, you know Yeah, I had someone deliver like some bad quote unquote bad news to me the other day and they'd come from a different organization and they were like

24:25.473 --> 24:28.161
[SPEAKER_01]: were like nervous talking to me.

24:28.643 --> 24:29.666
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, it's all good.

24:29.686 --> 24:30.288
[SPEAKER_01]: Listen to Nick.

24:30.468 --> 24:32.013
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, no, no, no, no, factored.

24:32.033 --> 24:32.454
[SPEAKER_01]: No one died.

24:32.474 --> 24:34.079
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, we could straight now.

24:35.022 --> 24:38.493
[SPEAKER_01]: And then she was like, oh, this is a lot different than what I'm used to.

24:38.533 --> 24:39.436
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, in what way?

24:39.476 --> 24:39.837
[SPEAKER_01]: And like,

24:41.318 --> 24:43.962
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not yelling at anyone at all.

24:43.982 --> 24:44.343
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, no.

24:45.044 --> 24:49.971
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's very difficult, but it's something that you as a leader have to nurture.

24:50.652 --> 24:52.295
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that you listen?

24:52.676 --> 24:56.722
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't judge, you don't react, you don't freak out like all those things.

24:57.022 --> 24:59.146
[SPEAKER_01]: Which, by the way, is so common, dude.

24:59.166 --> 25:00.928
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so common, it's so ridiculous.

25:01.529 --> 25:03.252
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was telling somebody this.

25:04.273 --> 25:06.617
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, oh, that's a matter though.

25:07.525 --> 25:25.383
[SPEAKER_02]: where scared was saying, hey, if I act a certain way, tell me, you know, because sometimes like I don't realize I'm acting a certain way like me or whatever, or a defensive or whatever, you know, he said, sometimes I don't realize I'm doing this until like way later or like days or weeks afterwards, I realize, oh wait, maybe I could have been nice or something like that.

25:25.403 --> 25:26.965
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me know, right?

25:26.985 --> 25:32.991
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm thinking that, so time went on and I actually did let this person know.

25:33.211 --> 25:33.972
[SPEAKER_02]: And they just,

25:33.952 --> 25:36.196
[SPEAKER_02]: got mad at me for you, right?

25:36.216 --> 25:46.554
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of like I'm trying to think like, okay, I understand the dynamics of it because when you're in the moment, it affects you emotionally, but at the same time, how can you not ignore or put it this way?

25:47.515 --> 25:54.407
[SPEAKER_02]: It helps to not ignore the fact that, hey, if you're acting a certain way that's destructive to your own world,

25:54.522 --> 25:56.465
[SPEAKER_02]: and you don't know about it in the moment.

25:56.825 --> 25:58.447
[SPEAKER_02]: That's really important information.

25:58.628 --> 26:00.290
[SPEAKER_02]: So wouldn't you want to know about it?

26:00.811 --> 26:06.739
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't forget that part of it, because I understand the feeling, it's like someone coming to you and telling you you're doing the wrong thing.

26:06.759 --> 26:08.601
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, who are you to tell me how to be?

26:08.681 --> 26:18.575
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so then what you gotta do is you gotta figure out a way that you can deliver that message and it indirect approach where the people hear it and they go, oh, like he might be talking about me.

26:18.715 --> 26:24.343
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nice if you have a podcast to connect and deliver that message to the indirect approach.

26:24.323 --> 26:26.206
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it does.

26:26.226 --> 26:27.268
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's what you got to do though.

26:27.489 --> 26:30.354
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to figure out how to frame things properly.

26:30.374 --> 26:38.168
[SPEAKER_01]: So people can hear him because if you just beat them down with it, like I'm sure whenever this person did this thing, maybe if you would have said like, hey dude, you remember when you asked me about that?

26:38.890 --> 26:40.813
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this the kind of thing you were talking about?

26:40.793 --> 26:45.502
[SPEAKER_01]: And that way you're not confronting them with it, but you're making them aware that like, hey, dude, you think about what you're doing right now.

26:45.903 --> 26:49.450
[SPEAKER_02]: Even you explain this right now is really putting it for me, right?

26:49.470 --> 26:51.273
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm learning in real time by the way.

26:51.293 --> 26:58.407
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really putting into perspective how important it is as the leader guy to be approachable in that way.

26:58.808 --> 27:02.515
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if you're not like you run this risk too, where you could be like, um,

27:02.495 --> 27:06.060
[SPEAKER_02]: The person could come with the indirect approach, right?

27:06.140 --> 27:09.345
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're, let's say you're anti, let's say you're on the other side of the spectrum.

27:09.365 --> 27:09.926
[SPEAKER_02]: Or this, right?

27:09.946 --> 27:10.868
[SPEAKER_02]: Where you're kind of sensitive.

27:11.168 --> 27:12.330
[SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, no one could tell me nothing.

27:12.350 --> 27:14.533
[SPEAKER_02]: You'd better, you know, you embrace the yes man.

27:14.573 --> 27:19.541
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're that kind of, we'll say, even if someone comes with an indirect approach.

27:19.641 --> 27:20.662
[SPEAKER_02]: Just still piss you off.

27:20.682 --> 27:23.026
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, you run the risk of getting justice pissed.

27:23.046 --> 27:25.089
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're kind of like, it's what you say.

27:25.349 --> 27:28.614
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you seem saying like they're, Bro, that ego is a foul thing.

27:28.775 --> 27:29.055
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

27:29.175 --> 27:31.118
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is a foul thing.

27:31.098 --> 27:32.820
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, go for that.

27:33.241 --> 27:35.604
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's like they make you pay for anything.

27:36.004 --> 27:40.770
[SPEAKER_02]: Any little thing that makes me feel a certain way that I don't like you'll pay the price for.

27:40.790 --> 27:42.553
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got run about leadership strategy and tactics.

27:42.853 --> 27:43.874
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such a good set up.

27:43.914 --> 27:51.043
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like I say, you know, how do you handle it when someone that you do not respect comes and critiques you?

27:51.204 --> 27:51.784
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you do?

27:52.565 --> 27:53.967
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh, you listen to them.

27:53.947 --> 28:02.129
[SPEAKER_01]: And you say, okay, how can I take their information that they're giving me and how can I help you utilize this to help me become a better leader?

28:02.230 --> 28:04.496
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's really hard for people to do that.

28:05.077 --> 28:07.263
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's really hard for people to do that.

28:07.524 --> 28:08.968
[SPEAKER_02]: In the spirit of figuring

28:08.948 --> 28:28.392
[SPEAKER_02]: this out and kind of maneuvering your way through it, you can break it down to this is a shift from a short term payoff to a long term payoff, because I've been in that situation and this was a unique situation because it was with a person that like.

28:28.642 --> 28:33.868
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying I didn't respect this person, but in that context that we're in, I really didn't.

28:34.629 --> 28:39.355
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, there's some arrogance there, like, kind of like, there's a sense of competition, you know.

28:39.635 --> 28:45.062
[SPEAKER_02]: So, if this person told me, hey, I was doing the, I made the wrong move here, and his move was better.

28:45.703 --> 28:57.417
[SPEAKER_02]: Seems like it was like really obvious that that was going on, so I'm like shoot for me to take the high road right now, and really admit to myself that by he's kind of right, you know?

28:57.397 --> 29:00.366
[SPEAKER_02]: would be such a massive loss for me right now.

29:00.747 --> 29:07.407
[SPEAKER_02]: In the moment, the probably the most massive, you know, person, a person, little undercover loss.

29:08.332 --> 29:13.018
[SPEAKER_02]: that I can imagine, yeah, short term, long term, yeah.

29:13.358 --> 29:35.385
[SPEAKER_02]: But here, and here was the other painful part that I think I'm saying this because it's kind of one of those things to look out for and as far as the feeling and the pitfall, me taking the L gave him a W short term and long term, gave him a W because it was a creative decision.

29:35.365 --> 29:36.287
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, on my thing.

29:36.307 --> 29:38.290
[SPEAKER_02]: So for me to be like, okay, you're right.

29:38.310 --> 29:38.491
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

29:38.511 --> 29:38.891
[SPEAKER_02]: I take that.

29:39.132 --> 29:47.808
[SPEAKER_02]: But I got a better product right that I that I put out, but at the same time, he knows that he's the one who corrected me on my my product.

29:47.848 --> 29:51.214
[SPEAKER_02]: You seem to say so he takes this down.

29:51.194 --> 29:58.670
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually not you, but, um, no, no, no, if it was you, that's a good context, you know, like I would walk in the arms here.

29:58.690 --> 30:06.125
[SPEAKER_02]: This one was someone who's like, you know, one of these freaking, what you call him couch, armchair, quarterback type, it was like one of those scenarios.

30:06.145 --> 30:07.127
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway.

30:07.107 --> 30:14.195
[SPEAKER_02]: But the thing is, the whole point was, if you can endure that, it actually doesn't matter because you will win, and otherwise it's not gonna do.

30:14.315 --> 30:19.140
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly right, but it's a long-term thing and you might take some short-term L's, which actually don't matter about it.

30:19.160 --> 30:19.740
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they don't matter.

30:19.901 --> 30:22.103
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like that's literally what there's so much.

30:22.663 --> 30:32.093
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, when someone looks at you and you get a really, like a legit good recommendation on something and you decide not to take it because then you go, it's so bad.

30:32.194 --> 30:33.054
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so bad.

30:33.074 --> 30:34.116
[SPEAKER_01]: When you go, oh, that's a good point.

30:34.136 --> 30:35.477
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that wouldn't prove the thing.

30:35.457 --> 30:38.241
[SPEAKER_01]: And you got to call them to see them more, you get elevated.

30:38.722 --> 30:42.828
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though you feel like you took an L, you're actually taking a W, you're like, I'm like, I'm going to make sense.

30:42.848 --> 30:43.689
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll do that.

30:43.709 --> 30:43.829
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

30:43.910 --> 30:44.771
[SPEAKER_01]: So easy to do that.

30:44.831 --> 30:46.573
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just so easy to be like, oh, that's good.

30:46.594 --> 30:49.037
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, I'm saying it's not easy.

30:49.097 --> 30:50.399
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's not easy.

30:50.419 --> 30:51.921
[SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to go bad.

30:52.282 --> 30:56.368
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's, it's actually not that hard to be like, hey, that's a good point.

30:56.348 --> 30:59.213
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's nothing better than like any type of criticism you get you go.

30:59.313 --> 31:09.231
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, yeah, I do screw that up Let's just such an easy way to to get a W instead of a loss even though it feels like a loss You you you win.

31:09.572 --> 31:11.075
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it might say that's a good point now.

31:11.295 --> 31:17.867
[SPEAKER_01]: It's I like your plan better Let's go with that There's not one person that goes yeah, you see no everyone goes oh wow

31:18.252 --> 31:30.527
[SPEAKER_02]: Echo must be really secure in what he's doing to just be like, oh, yeah, that's a good point actually doesn't feel that way though I'll do you understand sometimes sometimes people depends on your relationship with them Some people will be like, yeah, you see, but you're still right.

31:30.707 --> 31:36.214
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he'll be like you see, but and that person might feel good about them So I've like they got over but you're right.

31:36.354 --> 31:39.739
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they will elevate you It won't be like all that guys ignorant.

31:39.759 --> 31:41.381
[SPEAKER_02]: They'll be like, oh well.

31:42.682 --> 31:44.685
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you know, you kind of know But it's not weird though.

31:44.825 --> 31:47.348
[SPEAKER_02]: This one's figuring out how all this stuff works

31:47.328 --> 32:08.789
[SPEAKER_02]: It's really a version of discipline because that's what discipline is right it's like where you're kind of controlling your emotions Yeah, you're you're you're indexing on the big picture of the long term That's what what discipline is you know, you all way down to like a diet in a like you go diet Right, which is a it's kind of like yeah, you could take the W now and eat that yummy this or that whatever Let's call it a donut.

32:08.969 --> 32:09.690
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what it is.

32:09.710 --> 32:16.356
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, that's big short term W, but you know a long term loser is one minute

32:16.336 --> 32:18.639
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you switch it around there's you're disciplined right there.

32:18.679 --> 32:20.020
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm saying so same deal.

32:20.140 --> 32:21.001
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same exact thing.

32:21.201 --> 32:29.311
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope It is and just to note It's like one of the you ever heard that the crazy person doesn't know that they're crazy, right?

32:29.331 --> 32:40.403
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're a leader and you think no one can see what you're doing I'm can tell in you people can see what you're doing now if you're over there just thinking like no one can see this little move that I'm making if you're thinking that

32:40.383 --> 32:46.353
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm telling you everyone can see it, just like if you're a crazy person and right now you're like, I'm not crazy, you're kind of crazy.

32:46.774 --> 32:47.936
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's be careful.

32:48.777 --> 32:50.981
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it continues with integrity here.

32:51.201 --> 32:57.632
[SPEAKER_01]: Integrity also means having the courage to take full responsibility for your actions and those of your subordinates.

32:59.536 --> 33:01.699
[SPEAKER_01]: This sounds pretty like an awesome concept.

33:02.500 --> 33:05.044
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, this is two, that he made this speech in 1997.

33:05.325 --> 33:11.213
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm glad he's not here to sue me for extreme ownership, right?

33:12.315 --> 33:16.081
[SPEAKER_01]: To take full responsibility for your actions and those of your subordinates, don't quibble.

33:16.521 --> 33:18.204
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't try to shift the blame.

33:18.464 --> 33:20.447
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't look for scapegoats.

33:20.613 --> 33:25.308
[SPEAKER_01]: If you or your command has fouled up, then fess up and press on.

33:25.991 --> 33:32.833
[SPEAKER_01]: In doing so, you will set the right example for your men and earn the respect of your subordinates and superiors alike.

33:34.147 --> 33:40.413
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing destroys a unit's effectiveness and leadership quicker than the leaders not taking the sole responsibility for their actions.

33:40.753 --> 33:50.041
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first sign of this is usually careerism, the CYA factor, which very often has the tendency to appear first in the higher headquarters.

33:50.722 --> 33:53.664
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I couldn't have written this paragraph any better than he said it, right?

33:54.165 --> 33:56.847
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, you know, like, this is all my deal.

33:57.868 --> 33:59.369
[SPEAKER_01]: It's his deal, but this is universal.

33:59.529 --> 34:03.613
[SPEAKER_01]: This shows a universality of taking ownership.

34:03.779 --> 34:08.546
[SPEAKER_01]: It rapidly feeds on itself and spreads like wired wildfire down through the entire organization.

34:08.986 --> 34:18.139
[SPEAKER_01]: At the first indication of this selfish self-centered, self-serving attitude, you must take every possible step to rooted out and replace it with integrity.

34:18.479 --> 34:25.028
[SPEAKER_01]: So he kind of wraps integrity around taking ownership and responsibility in the whole nine yards, which is awesome.

34:26.189 --> 34:31.959
[SPEAKER_01]: going on to the second major thing which men look for in their leaders is knowledge and training.

34:32.400 --> 34:45.023
[SPEAKER_01]: It is essential that you ensure you have the necessary, you have the knowledge, information, and training necessary for you to properly and assess and solve the problems which you will face, which will face you and your men.

34:45.504 --> 34:47.708
[SPEAKER_01]: I started getting a little nervous when I was reading this.

34:47.688 --> 34:53.413
[SPEAKER_01]: All this must be done to the very best of your ability regardless of the size or importance of the problem.

34:53.893 --> 34:58.778
[SPEAKER_01]: Never accept the second best or mediocre solution because you think the problem is not worth your time and effort.

34:59.218 --> 35:02.281
[SPEAKER_01]: So now I'm like thinking, oh, so you've got to, you've got to know everything.

35:02.841 --> 35:16.513
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of thinking this might not be the best paragraph, but then he says, if you don't have the necessary knowledge and information, then go get it by asking for assistance, advice, guidance, doing research until you're satisfied, you have everything you need to reach the best solution.

35:17.675 --> 35:18.900
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't do that if you're not humble.

35:19.844 --> 35:21.109
[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot do that if you're not humble.

35:21.651 --> 35:24.462
[SPEAKER_01]: Then carry out the solution with your full effort and determination.

35:25.808 --> 35:26.349
[SPEAKER_01]: So there you go.

35:26.469 --> 35:28.473
[SPEAKER_01]: If you, you should know what's happening.

35:28.593 --> 35:30.357
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't know, ask questions, figure it out.

35:31.358 --> 35:39.454
[SPEAKER_01]: Another point that the men look for in you as their leader is your concern and effort on behalf of the welfare of those who serve under you.

35:39.754 --> 35:48.070
[SPEAKER_01]: You must prove beyond any doubt that you are fair and just in your dealings with them and that you genuinely like and respect them.

35:48.050 --> 35:55.190
[SPEAKER_01]: In all circumstances, you must place their well-being ahead of your own regardless of the cost to yourself.

35:55.711 --> 35:56.052
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom.

35:56.092 --> 35:58.800
[SPEAKER_01]: No sunshine for you.

35:59.061 --> 36:00.625
[SPEAKER_01]: And let me shade with everybody else.

36:01.921 --> 36:15.144
[SPEAKER_01]: And finally, one other, and perhaps equally important factor is that once you're accepted as a leader, your men will not only follow you, but will also emulate you to the best of their ability, your character, and behavior.

36:15.926 --> 36:23.238
[SPEAKER_01]: That is why a leader must at all times, and in all places, set and maintain the highest of standards.

36:24.200 --> 36:27.085
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the sad.

36:27.065 --> 36:35.318
[SPEAKER_01]: and real truth of the situation if you are in a leadership position and you are acting like a jackass of your team is going to act like jackass is too.

36:36.419 --> 36:39.564
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can, when I acted, when I was in leadership position, I acted like a jackass.

36:39.985 --> 36:40.345
[SPEAKER_01]: Guess what?

36:40.726 --> 36:44.632
[SPEAKER_01]: Other people are going to follow you, whether it's your family, whether it's your people at work, whatever it is.

36:44.972 --> 36:47.556
[SPEAKER_01]: You act like a jackass people are going to people going to be born on board.

36:47.617 --> 36:55.789
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember a guy at the master, several masters ago, he was saying, he's like, you know,

36:55.769 --> 37:00.036
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I like to have fun and I don't like to take things seriously.

37:00.056 --> 37:16.782
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I like to have a good time And I'm having a trouble with my support and it's like they don't take me seriously I'm like, bro, they're we really need to answer this question And that's the same like what you do your team is going to Emulate they're gonna try and do the same thing so you have to be very very careful that stuff

37:18.685 --> 37:19.266
[SPEAKER_01]: carrying on.

37:20.127 --> 37:30.062
[SPEAKER_01]: Let us now put these bits and pieces into service life and this is what's incredible is you're going to see that these things that he talks about is how he lived and he talks about it here.

37:30.082 --> 37:34.769
[SPEAKER_01]: Let us now put these bits and pieces into service life and see the results in actual practice and doing so.

37:35.350 --> 37:40.558
[SPEAKER_01]: I would like to use the life as a POW to demonstrate the reasons for my beliefs.

37:40.538 --> 37:48.665
[SPEAKER_01]: The great social historian, The Durance, have said that culture is a thin veneer that superimposes itself on mankind.

37:49.106 --> 38:04.420
[SPEAKER_01]: This is very true, and when men are stripped of this veneer and every other vestige of civilization are treated as and live as animals, as we were forced to do as POWs, then the laws of the jungle soon take over.

38:05.040 --> 38:10.545
[SPEAKER_01]: It is in this environment that the true basics

38:10.525 --> 38:16.572
[SPEAKER_01]: Perfect, the laws of the jungle, and here's the thing.

38:17.012 --> 38:23.619
[SPEAKER_01]: The laws of the jungle, you can't allow those things to thrive.

38:23.960 --> 38:29.626
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to bring in leadership because the laws of the jungle and good laws in jungle don't work.

38:30.607 --> 38:33.630
[SPEAKER_01]: They work at an animal level, but they don't work at a human level.

38:34.758 --> 38:39.245
[SPEAKER_01]: and you gotta know that they're there, they're like they're in the up background operating system.

38:39.265 --> 38:40.507
[SPEAKER_01]: The laws that they're normal.

38:40.527 --> 38:44.773
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I like, oh, there's a physical component when I'm talking to you.

38:45.114 --> 38:46.576
[SPEAKER_01]: The United could be talking about a video.

38:46.636 --> 38:51.424
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a physical component that's in no doubt, in it's part of the element, right?

38:52.125 --> 38:53.527
[SPEAKER_01]: So you gotta be aware of that.

38:53.547 --> 38:54.829
[SPEAKER_01]: There's gotta be a high rookie.

38:54.849 --> 38:56.952
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a pecking of the sinks are always happening.

38:58.197 --> 39:08.230
[SPEAKER_01]: When I first arrived in Japan, courtesy of the Japanese Navy, I was sent to a special questioning camp under the Japanese Navy at a place named Ofuna, a suburb of Yokohama.

39:08.951 --> 39:17.202
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a special interrogation camp where we were placed in solitary confinement in small cells, no speaking allowed and we were questioned and beaten every day.

39:17.958 --> 39:24.565
[SPEAKER_01]: We were not considered as POWs, but rather we were still on the firing line and could be killed at any time.

39:25.807 --> 39:39.041
[SPEAKER_01]: I was moved from this camp after six months when they brought in a U.S. Catalina crew shot down out of Dutch Harbor, and I was sent to the starting up of the work camps in the Yokohama area.

39:39.362 --> 39:47.931
[SPEAKER_01]: The first working camp I went to was located in a baseball stadium in the center of Yokohama,

39:47.911 --> 39:55.198
[SPEAKER_01]: We were housed in a large indoor area under one of the grandstands and I arrived there the same day as the first batch of prisoners from Hong Kong.

39:55.699 --> 40:00.423
[SPEAKER_01]: There were five officers of with this group of approximately 300 POWs.

40:00.784 --> 40:14.037
[SPEAKER_01]: In Hong Kong, the Japanese had raped and bayonetted nurses, women and children, killed doctors and patients in the hospital wards, operating theaters and recovery rooms.

40:14.017 --> 40:29.224
[SPEAKER_01]: Bayonetted mutilated shot and beheaded POWs just to amuse themselves, humiliated and degraded them in every possible way, no medical treatment or supplies for the sick and wounded, the lowest possible living conditions and way below starvation diet.

40:30.554 --> 40:34.599
[SPEAKER_01]: We were joined two months later by 75 POWs from the Philippines.

40:35.199 --> 40:45.771
[SPEAKER_01]: And these were some of the survivors from the Baton Death March, where over 16,950 POWs were killed, over two-thirds of the total number of POWs involved.

40:46.392 --> 40:57.304
[SPEAKER_01]: All these prisoners, both the Hong Kong and Philippine POWs, had then to endure the hellships where thousands died on route from Hong Kong and Manila to Japan.

40:57.284 --> 41:06.014
[SPEAKER_01]: In one ship alone, the arisen arisen meru out of 1,800 POWs, only 8 survived.

41:08.077 --> 41:15.065
[SPEAKER_01]: The oreco meru started out with 1,619 POWs and only 200 survived that trip.

41:16.927 --> 41:26.599
[SPEAKER_01]: The order sent down by the Japanese Tokyo headquarters to Hong Kong and Philippine camps was to send their best and healthiest prisoners to work in Japan.

41:26.731 --> 41:31.611
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, as you all well know, when a commanding officer gets an order to send his best men.

41:32.789 --> 41:40.881
[SPEAKER_01]: This is when he unloads all his dead beats, no goodders, trouble-makers, sick, wounded, incompetence, etc.

41:41.783 --> 41:51.337
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I found myself to be the Senior POW in this brand new working camp and faced with over 375 very hostile, belligerent POWs.

41:51.778 --> 41:57.306
[SPEAKER_01]: This gave me some concept of how Daniel felt when he walked into the den of lions.

41:59.870 --> 42:02.053
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's got a rag-tad crew.

42:03.147 --> 42:09.299
[SPEAKER_01]: I was the senior POW and all the working camps that I was in, but this was a title in name only.

42:10.060 --> 42:21.882
[SPEAKER_01]: As with no means of physically exerting discipline, you had only vast inherent responsibilities for the health and well-being of all those in the camp, but no means to enforce your decisions.

42:23.026 --> 42:36.227
[SPEAKER_01]: The nature of military discipline encompasses two basic forms, the imposed discipline and the discipline which the individual decides is necessary, which is self-discipline.

42:37.830 --> 42:41.676
[SPEAKER_01]: Field Marshal Sir Archbald Wavel.

42:41.656 --> 42:45.782
[SPEAKER_01]: in his book, Soldiers and Soldering, describes as follows.

42:46.362 --> 42:55.655
[SPEAKER_01]: Discipline makes a man do something he would not do unless he has learned that is the right the proper and expedient thing to do.

42:57.097 --> 43:07.832
[SPEAKER_01]: At its best, it is instilled and maintained by pride in oneself, in one unit, in one's profession, and only at its worst.

43:07.812 --> 43:09.775
[SPEAKER_01]: by fear and punishment.

43:10.917 --> 43:14.061
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a very interesting take on discipline.

43:15.143 --> 43:16.745
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's sort of ties into what you were saying.

43:16.765 --> 43:19.289
[SPEAKER_01]: Like discipline is strategic thinking.

43:19.309 --> 43:22.574
[SPEAKER_01]: What I I don't want to do it right now, but in the long run it's the right thing to do.

43:22.915 --> 43:26.620
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I don't want to do it right now, but for the team it's the right thing to do.

43:27.502 --> 43:31.187
[SPEAKER_01]: Or I don't want to do it right now, but for the unit it's the right thing to do.

43:31.167 --> 43:33.210
[SPEAKER_01]: that that is a critical thing.

43:33.992 --> 43:37.638
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a critical component, especially in a military situation.

43:37.698 --> 43:40.823
[SPEAKER_01]: And what he's saying here is like listen, my rank means nothing.

43:40.843 --> 43:42.005
[SPEAKER_01]: We're in a freaking prisoner camp.

43:42.025 --> 43:43.547
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you going to do to me?

43:43.948 --> 43:45.350
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in a freaking prisoner of war camp.

43:45.510 --> 43:46.532
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to get to a little bit.

43:46.572 --> 43:48.295
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a little bit of animal.

43:48.315 --> 43:49.256
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not even a little.

43:49.276 --> 43:51.140
[SPEAKER_01]: There's animosity towards their leadership.

43:51.380 --> 43:54.565
[SPEAKER_01]: Because think about your a freaking private soldier, you're out there in the Philippines.

43:54.605 --> 43:56.989
[SPEAKER_01]: Next thing you know, you're getting rolled up.

43:56.969 --> 44:19.163
[SPEAKER_01]: like what what who the hell is in charge of this freaking shit you see what I'm saying so you're like right a second you told me to go over here now I'm in prison of war what the hell's wrong with you so there's some of that which I never thought too deeply about that but that frustration from the front line troops going dude what what are you to why am I listening to you you just got us all captured screw you so he's got to overcome that challenge as well

44:19.143 --> 44:27.911
[SPEAKER_01]: and he goes on so so he's saying like discipline self discipline you want the troops to like step up and do things for themselves.

44:28.713 --> 44:31.161
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't want them to be doing something just because they're afraid.

44:32.035 --> 44:36.099
[SPEAKER_01]: And you don't want to do something because otherwise you punished them.

44:36.119 --> 44:37.601
[SPEAKER_01]: And he goes into that a little bit more.

44:37.841 --> 44:40.464
[SPEAKER_01]: In our case, punishment was completely out of the question.

44:40.524 --> 44:47.912
[SPEAKER_01]: The conditions and environment in which we existed reduced our health to the very razor edge of complete collapse.

44:48.172 --> 44:55.360
[SPEAKER_01]: And we needed every bit of our health, strength, stamina, and reserve to barely keep living from day to day.

44:55.812 --> 45:01.324
[SPEAKER_01]: having to undergo punishment on top of all this would have been 10 amount to issuing a death sentence.

45:01.344 --> 45:11.526
[SPEAKER_01]: Thus, the authority we had was only that which the men wished to give us when and if they felt like it.

45:14.155 --> 45:18.942
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is leadership, this is the core of leadership.

45:19.163 --> 45:23.810
[SPEAKER_01]: You have no means to back anything up and if you should always be thinking that.

45:23.830 --> 45:32.423
[SPEAKER_01]: You should always be thinking, I'm only going to be able to lead in the way that they let me lead.

45:32.443 --> 45:35.708
[SPEAKER_01]: When they feel like it, if they feel like it.

45:37.510 --> 45:46.210
[SPEAKER_01]: As officers that we were singled out by the Japanese for special treatment, every method possible is used to degrade us in front of the men in order to counter any controller discipline we might try to develop.

45:46.932 --> 45:53.427
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not only is it the like a tough situation, you've got these other freaking Japanese imperial people that are trying to undermine what you're doing.

45:54.301 --> 45:59.134
[SPEAKER_01]: From the men's point of view, all officers were under great suspicion.

45:59.174 --> 46:09.222
[SPEAKER_01]: And here we go, they felt they had been let down, and that the incompetence of their officers was responsible and large, part for their being prisoners, facts.

46:10.113 --> 46:17.704
[SPEAKER_01]: Another sad factor was that after being captured, unfortunately, a lot of the officers Prime Concern had been for themselves.

46:18.525 --> 46:31.064
[SPEAKER_01]: They had taken the best quarters, furnishing, clothing, and supplies available, and only after they had taken what they wanted or considered their share as an officer did the troops get what was left.

46:32.065 --> 46:34.028
[SPEAKER_01]: Brah.

46:34.008 --> 46:41.822
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you think you think the shit's not going sideways like you imagine the person out out ranks you And now it's on their taken shit from you.

46:42.182 --> 46:44.266
[SPEAKER_01]: They're there there's ass beatings happen.

46:44.306 --> 46:50.076
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you see what I'm saying This was particularly true in the distribution of food

46:50.056 --> 46:55.886
[SPEAKER_01]: Since the POWs were on a starvation diet, food was of the greatest importance as it meant life or death.

46:56.046 --> 47:07.605
[SPEAKER_01]: And when the officers took more than their equal share of the daily ration, per prisoner, it not only meant that it drastically reduced the food left for the men, but also the men's chances of survival.

47:07.966 --> 47:11.332
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't like, bro, I get some extra fries on my plate.

47:12.173 --> 47:16.300
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like, I don't get this morsel of bread, and I'm gonna die from it.

47:20.515 --> 47:39.364
[SPEAKER_01]: The first night we were in Yoka Hama camp, we, the five officers from Hong Kong and myself decided that we had to share the privations, maltreatment and work at least equally with the men, and that this could be done by, this could only be done by demonstrating that we took on an obviously greater share than the men, not just the same.

47:39.625 --> 47:41.207
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to take on more.

47:41.693 --> 47:50.127
[SPEAKER_01]: We immediately set up a system whereby the food and everything else we received was dished out in full view of the men.

47:50.748 --> 48:02.167
[SPEAKER_01]: If anyone thought that he had less than an officer, he was free to exchange his share for the officer's no questions asked, it's freaking legit.

48:05.052 --> 48:08.157
[SPEAKER_01]: The officers were always the last to take up their share.

48:09.048 --> 48:16.514
[SPEAKER_01]: The men tried us on by eating some of their food and then changing it for the officer's bowl, or for an officer's bowl.

48:16.975 --> 48:23.681
[SPEAKER_01]: But in no time flat, the troops themselves sorted this out and woe but tied to anyone who tried it.

48:23.841 --> 48:29.946
[SPEAKER_01]: So they said, you know, I'm gonna take a couple bites from my rice bowl and then say, hey, echo, you got more rice than me trade.

48:30.587 --> 48:31.307
[SPEAKER_01]: And no, okay.

48:31.688 --> 48:33.289
[SPEAKER_01]: So they just did it, no questions asked.

48:33.629 --> 48:35.431
[SPEAKER_01]: But then the troops go, what are you doing to that?

48:35.451 --> 48:36.532
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you're screwing over this guy.

48:36.892 --> 48:38.093
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you're screwing over the officer.

48:38.073 --> 48:40.839
[SPEAKER_01]: So the troops that gang started to police themselves.

48:42.061 --> 48:42.281
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

48:42.301 --> 48:43.344
[SPEAKER_02]: Those, that's interesting.

48:43.384 --> 48:45.408
[SPEAKER_02]: Those little ways of keeping it fair.

48:45.468 --> 48:47.211
[SPEAKER_02]: To be like with like a portion.

48:47.592 --> 48:47.692
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

48:47.712 --> 48:49.235
[SPEAKER_02]: So I do, I started this with my kids.

48:50.318 --> 48:52.903
[SPEAKER_02]: Where they were like, oh, let's say I don't know.

48:52.923 --> 48:55.728
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like a cookie or something like this.

48:57.091 --> 48:59.135
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll be like, hey, there's just one cookie.

48:59.155 --> 48:59.997
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to say it's a cookie.

49:01.158 --> 49:04.283
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll make one of them cut it in half and the other one gets to choose.

49:04.563 --> 49:05.044
[SPEAKER_02]: So dare.

49:05.064 --> 49:07.307
[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, you guys can figure out who wants to do what?

49:07.507 --> 49:11.593
[SPEAKER_02]: Because either way, you know, you kind of want to be the chooser, really.

49:11.654 --> 49:16.901
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're not the chooser, now you're motivated to cut it perfectly because you know they're gonna, you know, you seem to say it.

49:16.921 --> 49:19.185
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like one of those self-policing kind of scenarios.

49:19.225 --> 49:19.585
[SPEAKER_02]: For sure.

49:19.746 --> 49:21.208
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, that's a good one right there.

49:21.548 --> 49:23.491
[SPEAKER_02]: You can just trade whenever you want.

49:23.671 --> 49:24.052
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.

49:24.072 --> 49:25.554
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's basically what you're doing.

49:25.574 --> 49:27.197
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I'm gonna cut it in half, but you can pick which one.

49:27.237 --> 49:28.819
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the same thing.

49:28.799 --> 49:34.966
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a little easy with a cookie, not a damn horse or a rice, but hey, that's echoed Charles.

49:35.366 --> 49:38.930
[SPEAKER_01]: We're bringing the examples from the real world, there we go.

49:41.073 --> 49:54.368
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, in a way, this backfired as when the Japanese reduced an officer's ration because he was sick or as punishment, the men themselves made certain that the officer still received his fair and equal share and in some cases more than his share.

49:54.348 --> 49:56.139
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, this is not the rules of the jungle.

49:56.904 --> 50:00.527
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the rules of a team trying to survive together.

50:02.195 --> 50:12.791
[SPEAKER_01]: SIGARETS, I was surprised about this, SIGARETS became the currency of POWs and with the horrible conditions and starvation under which we lived, the addiction of Tuttabaco increased beyond belief.

50:13.652 --> 50:14.614
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never used tobacco.

50:15.695 --> 50:17.117
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what that addiction is.

50:17.338 --> 50:21.724
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen people freaking be addicted to tobacco, both cigarettes and chewing tobacco.

50:22.445 --> 50:23.707
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is crazy.

50:24.108 --> 50:30.818
[SPEAKER_01]: It's seen that when you were smoking, you could to a limited degree plot out the reality and ease the continual terrible pains of hunger.

50:30.798 --> 50:44.082
[SPEAKER_01]: Men who are starving never without intense hunger 24 hours of the day and every day of the year knowing that They're very lives dependent on small bits of food we got would still trade away their food for cigarettes

50:45.563 --> 51:04.011
[SPEAKER_01]: We, the officer's gave up smoking, which was no easy task in itself, but in this way we removed ourselves from any criticism and were able to put our ration of cigarettes into the ration for the men and also create a small supply for our doctor to be used in keeping the heavily addicted from trading away their food.

51:05.459 --> 51:15.032
[SPEAKER_01]: anyone offering to buy or sell food for cigarettes was reported by the men themselves to the doctor who would then talk to those involved and take remedial action.

51:15.533 --> 51:21.120
[SPEAKER_01]: In this way, our lives were made much more bearable and many lives were saved, saved again.

51:22.002 --> 51:25.947
[SPEAKER_01]: The laws of the jungle are brothers, you're going to give up food for cigarettes, you're going to die.

51:26.408 --> 51:30.994
[SPEAKER_01]: But the laws of the team and leadership are, hey, we need to, we need to help the team.

51:33.303 --> 51:46.496
[SPEAKER_01]: Another immediate action we took whenever it was whenever a Japanese guard started to beat up a prisoner the closest officer would jump in between them the prisoner would get lost as quickly as possible and the officer would take the beating.

51:47.417 --> 51:59.428
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes the guard would become bewildered to find he was beating the wrong man and would stop whereas sometimes he would become infuriated and take it out on the officer we just had to take our chance and hope for the best.

52:03.712 --> 52:09.201
[SPEAKER_01]: That's going to prove, you know, that's earning leadership capital, obviously in a big way.

52:10.163 --> 52:18.738
[SPEAKER_01]: A word about dress and deportment, clothing was an absolute premium as we only had what we had with us when we were captured.

52:19.199 --> 52:26.952
[SPEAKER_01]: The only clothing issue we were given was what the Japanese had captured and then did not want for themselves or could not use in any other way.

52:26.932 --> 52:31.140
[SPEAKER_01]: Believe me, the pickings were very slim and deeded, we lived in rags and tatters.

52:31.561 --> 52:34.606
[SPEAKER_01]: The clothing issues we were given all went to the men.

52:35.628 --> 52:45.126
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, in short, order the men made certain that every officer had one good shirt, tie tunic trousers, and hat to wear whenever we had to parade in front of the Japanese.

52:46.439 --> 52:53.879
[SPEAKER_01]: We were given one square inch of soap per week with which to do all our laundry and to keep our bodies clean.

52:54.301 --> 52:57.770
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no hot water and even cold water was in very limited supply.

52:57.810 --> 53:02.102
[SPEAKER_01]: We were allowed one hot bath and sometimes only a warm bath once a month.

53:02.082 --> 53:14.898
[SPEAKER_01]: The supply of razors, razor blades, hair clippers, scissors, needles, threads, and all other such normal items were only those which had been brought into the camp by the men after their surrender.

53:15.279 --> 53:19.004
[SPEAKER_01]: It was therefore impossible to maintain the normal standards of cleanliness.

53:19.464 --> 53:24.891
[SPEAKER_01]: In addition, we were out of the camp for about 12 hours of the day doing kooley labor on starvation diet.

53:25.312 --> 53:26.453
[SPEAKER_01]: The result.

53:26.433 --> 53:39.349
[SPEAKER_01]: Was that we were sick, starving, cold, filthy, infested with rice, fleas and bed bugs, but unable to find the time, energy or means to do very much about it.

53:41.231 --> 53:48.120
[SPEAKER_01]: Despite all this, through the height of ingenuity and improvisation, we still managed to keep ourselves as best we could.

53:48.995 --> 53:54.368
[SPEAKER_01]: When we turned out on parade, it may have been in rags and tatters, but we were clean.

53:55.230 --> 54:03.409
[SPEAKER_01]: As clean upright, formidable, proud of our heritage and still as undefeated as we could possibly be.

54:05.768 --> 54:13.061
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you just roll through this, uh, roll through this paragraph, like, whatever, you know, no big deal.

54:14.363 --> 54:15.305
[SPEAKER_01]: Dude, sick.

54:16.226 --> 54:16.887
[SPEAKER_01]: Rowan, I'm sick.

54:17.108 --> 54:19.432
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's okay.

54:19.452 --> 54:21.355
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just like one thing, hungry.

54:22.297 --> 54:26.003
[SPEAKER_01]: Like not just hungry, you know, oh, I haven't eaten yet today.

54:26.564 --> 54:30.932
[SPEAKER_01]: Like sometimes you come into the podcast at 10 o'clock in the morning and you're quote unquote hungry.

54:30.912 --> 54:40.409
[SPEAKER_01]: or I come in and I'm quote unquote hungry because I didn't freaking chow down, you know, a big giant breakfast and a mulk.

54:40.630 --> 54:41.672
[SPEAKER_01]: And we complain about that.

54:42.153 --> 54:44.597
[SPEAKER_01]: Imagine being on a starvation diet for years.

54:45.198 --> 54:45.519
[SPEAKER_01]: Cold.

54:45.819 --> 54:46.601
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, cold.

54:46.641 --> 54:49.626
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't complain about being called a magic just being perpetually cold.

54:50.087 --> 54:50.448
[SPEAKER_01]: Filthy.

54:50.708 --> 54:52.752
[SPEAKER_01]: Infested with Lyspro.

54:54.267 --> 55:04.328
[SPEAKER_01]: infested with flees, infested with bag bug, bad bugs, like every one of these things is awful, every one of them.

55:05.371 --> 55:06.232
[SPEAKER_01]: and that's what they're doing.

55:06.612 --> 55:17.443
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet when it came time to turn out for parade, they stood up with their shoulders up and their chest out undefeated as we could possibly be.

55:18.323 --> 55:33.538
[SPEAKER_01]: Here may I quote from Field Marshall Slim in writing about his World War II campaign in the jungles of Burma, in which he said, quote, at some stage and in some circumstances, armies have

55:33.518 --> 55:39.008
[SPEAKER_01]: But they have never won victory until they have made it tout again, nor will they.

55:39.930 --> 55:56.860
[SPEAKER_01]: We have found it a great mistake to belittle the importance of smartness in turnout, alertness of courage, cleanliness of person, saluting or precision of movement, and to dismiss them as naive on entelagement, parade, square, stuff.

55:56.840 --> 56:12.500
[SPEAKER_01]: I do not believe that troops can have unshakable battle discipline without showing those outward signs which mark the pride, men take in themselves and their units, and the mutual confidence and respect that exists between them and their officers.

56:13.301 --> 56:25.716
[SPEAKER_01]: It was our experience in a tough school that the best fighting units in the long run were not necessarily those with the advertised reputations, but those who, when they came out to battle,

56:25.696 --> 56:30.241
[SPEAKER_01]: at once, resumed a more formal, disciplined, and appearance.

56:34.085 --> 56:35.707
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, how true, how true.

56:37.489 --> 56:46.179
[SPEAKER_01]: So that way that you carry yourself, as one of those things, man, it's like the way that you carry yourself, the way that you present yourself, that stuff makes a difference.

56:46.819 --> 56:48.521
[SPEAKER_01]: And anybody says it doesn't make a difference as wrong.

56:49.642 --> 56:50.223
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just wrong.

56:50.984 --> 56:53.847
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to present yourself in a disciplined manner.

56:55.463 --> 56:56.726
[SPEAKER_01]: How true, how true.

56:58.109 --> 57:09.175
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes on to say here, it was a long hard process for us POWs, but slowly the confidence faith and self-respectwards restored not only in the men, but also in ourselves as officers.

57:10.118 --> 57:14.147
[SPEAKER_01]: The first winter in Japan, 1942 to 1943 was the worst.

57:14.127 --> 57:27.785
[SPEAKER_01]: As we tried to climatize ourselves to living conditions, the cold winter in unheated barracks where we only had one blanket each, the daily, kooly labor, the starvation diet, and the total absence of any medical treatment.

57:29.307 --> 57:34.414
[SPEAKER_01]: Approximately 35% of all the POWs in the working camps Japan died that winter.

57:35.913 --> 57:51.715
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, in our camp, with its average of 375 POWs during these first two years, we lost only three men, less than one half of 1% per year, giving ample proof of the success of the efforts made by that entire camp.

57:52.196 --> 57:55.381
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, this is the laws of the jungle man 35% you're going down.

57:57.263 --> 58:05.515
[SPEAKER_01]: Let us now look at the mutual concern for one another or comradeship, which developed

58:05.933 --> 58:13.243
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe the good book says, greater love at no man than this that a man laid down his life for his friends.

58:14.084 --> 58:19.051
[SPEAKER_01]: This to me defines the comradeship we developed and I may give you one example.

58:20.353 --> 58:27.503
[SPEAKER_01]: Medicines were practically non-existent as we were never given any medical supplies whatsoever by the Japanese.

58:28.799 --> 58:49.356
[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't it like you think about when's the last time you put, like, bass or tracing on some freaking cut that you had, you know, cut that was getting a little bit infected to drop some peroxide in there, or you had freaking ringworm, and you're like, cool, go to get the lamassil or whatever, the little bleach on there, bleach it out, put the lamassil on, the ringworm's gone, you know, in three days.

58:49.336 --> 58:54.391
[SPEAKER_01]: We just don't even think about that, just no medical treatment, no medical treatment.

58:54.912 --> 59:01.371
[SPEAKER_01]: The red cross medical splice sent to Japan for use by POWs was taken by the Japanese military repackaged and sent to their combat troops.

59:04.878 --> 59:18.173
[SPEAKER_01]: After the war, the Allied forces found warehouses all over Japan filled with red cross-medical clothing and food supplies which had been sent for use by the POWs and which had been stored it to be used by Japanese troops in the event of a invasion of their homeland.

59:18.774 --> 59:24.701
[SPEAKER_01]: Our only hope was to pull whatever meager supplies we had in camping used them for the maximum benefit of all.

59:25.502 --> 59:34.092
[SPEAKER_01]: This had to be done in complete secrecy as the Japanese confiscated any medical supplies they

59:34.831 --> 59:38.918
[SPEAKER_01]: This presented a very great problem as everyone ordered whatever medicines they had.

59:39.379 --> 59:46.813
[SPEAKER_01]: While you may not have the right medicine or drug for whatever illness you encountered, at least you had a chance to burger or trade for the one you did need.

59:47.614 --> 59:54.747
[SPEAKER_01]: Our starvation diet, on our starvation diet, we had no resistance whatsoever to any disease or infection.

59:55.030 --> 01:00:06.120
[SPEAKER_01]: We suffered at all times from the ravages of malnutrition and its medical consequences, berry, berry, playgra, blindness, gangrene, et cetera.

01:00:06.140 --> 01:00:18.050
[SPEAKER_01]: Once our doctor got going on, once our doctor got going on secret sick parades, the men soon believed in us and started to turn in their bits and pieces of medical supplies to the doctor.

01:00:18.530 --> 01:00:24.936
[SPEAKER_01]: A detailed account was kept of our medical

01:00:24.916 --> 01:00:29.001
[SPEAKER_01]: Who gave them, and how much we have, how much we used, and on who?

01:00:29.882 --> 01:00:35.388
[SPEAKER_01]: These accounts were available, and could be seen at any time by anyone in the camp, a little transparency there.

01:00:35.969 --> 01:00:45.099
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can imagine, on these guys hoarding these little tiny little bits of medical supplies they had, and eventually got everyone to turn it all in, so we can not take care of the individuals, but take care of the team.

01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:47.922
[SPEAKER_01]: There's the law of the jungle being overtaken by teamwork.

01:00:49.104 --> 01:00:49.624
[SPEAKER_01]: Cover, move.

01:00:51.146 --> 01:00:52.948
[SPEAKER_01]: One POW from Hong Kong.

01:00:53.654 --> 01:01:06.769
[SPEAKER_01]: had smuggled in three morphine pills, which he turned into the doctor, and as these were the only pain killers we had, it was agreed that a unanimous vote of the entire camp would be necessary before one could be used.

01:01:07.150 --> 01:01:17.502
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason for this was that you never knew it might be your turn to need such help to get over that last, big, painful hump, and hence you'd better have a say as to how and when they were used.

01:01:17.482 --> 01:01:19.565
[SPEAKER_01]: Once they were gone, there just wasn't it going to be any more.

01:01:20.426 --> 01:01:30.999
[SPEAKER_01]: Time and time again, the doctor would decide to use a pill in such cases as drastic surgery due to gain green, as all of this had to be done without any anesthetic.

01:01:31.019 --> 01:01:34.403
[SPEAKER_01]: That means we're talking about amputations, with no anesthesia.

01:01:35.184 --> 01:01:43.354
[SPEAKER_01]: He also recommended that they'd be used in a case of the three men we just lost before they died, when there was nothing more we could do for them.

01:01:44.448 --> 01:01:45.231
[SPEAKER_01]: This is amazing.

01:01:45.572 --> 01:01:54.542
[SPEAKER_01]: In every instance, the unanimous decision was obtained from the camp only to have it vetoed by the man who was to receive the pill.

01:01:56.193 --> 01:02:03.370
[SPEAKER_01]: So every time a person was dying or needed as a seizure, was going to get their arm cut off.

01:02:03.490 --> 01:02:07.499
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole camp would vote, yes, given the morphine, and they'd say, no, save it.

01:02:09.183 --> 01:02:15.197
[SPEAKER_01]: I was separated from that camp after two years, but I understand that those three pills were still unused at the end of the war.

01:02:17.945 --> 01:02:24.713
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that kind of makes, you know how like, uh, you got a party, um, uh, hang out.

01:02:24.853 --> 01:02:25.874
[SPEAKER_02]: Super pulled quite out.

01:02:25.894 --> 01:02:27.196
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

01:02:27.216 --> 01:02:27.616
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

01:02:27.636 --> 01:02:29.378
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe you had these muffins or something like this.

01:02:29.418 --> 01:02:30.519
[SPEAKER_02]: Where would love the muffins?

01:02:31.020 --> 01:02:33.863
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, oh, there's one more, you know, everyone had some muffins, right?

01:02:33.883 --> 01:02:35.025
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's only one more laugh.

01:02:35.225 --> 01:02:38.809
[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone wants it, but no one wants to be the guy that take the last muffin.

01:02:38.829 --> 01:02:39.750
[SPEAKER_02]: You're seeing him saying.

01:02:39.730 --> 01:02:40.891
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of the same scenario.

01:02:40.932 --> 01:02:41.953
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.

01:02:42.033 --> 01:02:47.140
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but he's probably the extreme version of it, but just a little bit.

01:02:47.160 --> 01:02:53.267
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever that's, that's, that's, that's like a... That's like a body muffins versus the freaking amputation more of it.

01:02:53.287 --> 01:02:54.249
[SPEAKER_01]: It's different.

01:02:54.689 --> 01:02:55.851
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna let you, I'm gonna let it be.

01:02:56.031 --> 01:02:56.952
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but you.

01:02:57.293 --> 01:02:58.534
[SPEAKER_02]: In principle, it's the same thing.

01:02:58.674 --> 01:03:03.621
[SPEAKER_02]: And in fact, it kind of glared, sheds, sheds light on the power of that principle.

01:03:03.981 --> 01:03:05.884
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems like, even, okay, I understand.

01:03:05.924 --> 01:03:07.746
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to be the last guy to take them off it.

01:03:07.726 --> 01:03:20.479
[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever it is right I understand that because like it's not that big of deal It's like what I go without a muffin that's the easy sacrifice for the team You seem saying and for my reputation as like, you know, a guy who's not greedy.

01:03:20.499 --> 01:03:22.264
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right not a muffin mucher.

01:03:22.284 --> 01:03:23.828
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no

01:03:23.808 --> 01:03:28.193
[SPEAKER_02]: But, in the case of morphine, that's a huge, huge sacrifice.

01:03:28.273 --> 01:03:37.383
[SPEAKER_02]: Yet that principle is still that powerful that you won't even take some, come on, but I am imputation and you're still not taking the morphine, gang-greeting brah.

01:03:37.403 --> 01:03:38.984
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a powerful principle is what I'm saying.

01:03:39.104 --> 01:03:42.328
[SPEAKER_02]: It is indeed, it's insane.

01:03:42.348 --> 01:03:42.929
[SPEAKER_02]: That's real.

01:03:46.893 --> 01:03:47.173
[SPEAKER_01]: Fine.

01:03:49.456 --> 01:03:50.777
[SPEAKER_01]: A word about our stealing.

01:03:51.938 --> 01:03:56.085
[SPEAKER_01]: because this was one of the main ways to our survival.

01:03:56.746 --> 01:04:06.581
[SPEAKER_01]: Our camp worked at many various jobs each day, and it was possible on a lot of jobs to steal things which were not only of great benefit to the camp, but also to the Japanese with whom we worked.

01:04:06.601 --> 01:04:15.415
[SPEAKER_01]: A good example was an oil factory where they crushed peanuts, coconut, soy beans, et cetera to make various cooking oils and lubricant oils from castor beans.

01:04:15.395 --> 01:04:31.220
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a gold mine for us as we stole peanuts and coconut for food, and as we set up making soap in the boiler plant of the factory by making trays out of old tin stealing coconut oil and caustic, which we then cooked up on top of the boilers, the coolies we worked with knew what we were doing.

01:04:31.721 --> 01:04:33.484
[SPEAKER_01]: So we marked trays with their name on it.

01:04:33.965 --> 01:04:39.073
[SPEAKER_01]: When their tray of soap was done, we would cut the slab of soap and half and give them half.

01:04:39.053 --> 01:04:42.497
[SPEAKER_01]: We would then smuggle the soap out of the job and back to camp.

01:04:43.578 --> 01:04:52.007
[SPEAKER_01]: We were searched inside the factory by the factory guards before we left the job and then again outside the job by the army guards before we got in the trucks or marched back to camp.

01:04:52.387 --> 01:04:55.531
[SPEAKER_01]: At the camp we were searched once again inside the camp by the guards.

01:04:55.591 --> 01:05:01.858
[SPEAKER_01]: If at any time during this entire process we were caught, we never implicated the Japanese workers and they knew this.

01:05:02.098 --> 01:05:06.883
[SPEAKER_01]: So they trusted us even more than they did their own fellow workers.

01:05:06.863 --> 01:05:14.090
[SPEAKER_01]: Other items of great value to the Japanese were because of strict rationing in addition to the soap, where sugar, salt and cooking oil.

01:05:14.410 --> 01:05:21.097
[SPEAKER_01]: These items we stole not only from the factories, but also when we were loading or unloading railway cars, ships and barges.

01:05:21.738 --> 01:05:34.170
[SPEAKER_01]: We were able to steal, we were able by stealing at one job and trading with the Japanese coolies with whom we worked on other jobs to get a meager supply of drugs which were available on the Japanese market to supply to supplement our own supplies.

01:05:34.150 --> 01:05:36.616
[SPEAKER_01]: As for the men who did the stealings, stealing.

01:05:36.676 --> 01:05:41.547
[SPEAKER_01]: We set up a system whereby anything of value to the camp, such as food, trade goods, etc.

01:05:41.928 --> 01:05:47.902
[SPEAKER_01]: The man doing the stealing would notify the officers and an officer would go out to work on the job with him.

01:05:48.343 --> 01:05:50.067
[SPEAKER_01]: If the man got caught.

01:05:50.047 --> 01:05:53.790
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the officer would step in and say that he had ordered the prisoner to steal.

01:05:54.631 --> 01:06:00.076
[SPEAKER_01]: In this way, the officer took the giant share of the bashing, solitary confinement, and other punishment.

01:06:00.417 --> 01:06:09.085
[SPEAKER_01]: If the stealing was successful, then half the goods was turned into the camp, supplies, and used for the sick to trade with for the coolies for medicine.

01:06:10.126 --> 01:06:17.893
[SPEAKER_01]: Here again, complete records were kept and anyone could see them at any time to ensure just how goods were being used.

01:06:19.713 --> 01:06:20.781
[SPEAKER_01]: So who's the coolies?

01:06:21.003 --> 01:06:22.212
[SPEAKER_01]: Who's the sex slave workers?

01:06:23.180 --> 01:06:23.260
[UNKNOWN]: Hmm.

01:06:23.695 --> 01:06:35.690
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I don't know if they're prisoners, I don't know if they were like Japanese, like literal, like, criminals or something in Japan or what type of What country they came from?

01:06:35.870 --> 01:06:47.545
[SPEAKER_01]: Whether they were Chinese that had been brought over as slaves or Filipinos that had brought over by slaves Or whether they were just like Japanese, you know lower class Japanese that were being enslaved, but that's what cool is they're doing.

01:06:47.565 --> 01:06:48.386
[SPEAKER_01]: They're kind of like slaves.

01:06:48.446 --> 01:06:52.251
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like elevated slaves

01:06:52.231 --> 01:07:01.670
[SPEAKER_01]: A few words on the pride and self-respect of the men no matter what their original background or the results of the degradation and environment in which we existed.

01:07:02.332 --> 01:07:10.729
[SPEAKER_01]: I was far from being the ideal prisoner, and when one of the Japanese guards consistently beat up the very sick prisoners, I went after him and beat him into the deck.

01:07:12.228 --> 01:07:19.018
[SPEAKER_01]: I shall not go into the aftermath of that affair, suffice it to say I was extremely lucky to barely survive the punishment and not be killed.

01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:27.231
[SPEAKER_01]: When the beatings of the sick turned started up again, the men said I should try something else as we would never live through that punishment again.

01:07:28.012 --> 01:07:29.955
[SPEAKER_01]: So we held a sit-down strike.

01:07:30.336 --> 01:07:38.168
[SPEAKER_01]: And after I had received a terrible beating, but also the insurance that the sick would not have to go to work, did I give my order for the men to go to work?

01:07:39.008 --> 01:07:50.757
[SPEAKER_01]: My hour of glory was very shortly of dinner I was removed from that camp within an hour and sent to a severe discipline camp at Omori Tokyo to show me the error of my ways.

01:07:51.344 --> 01:08:00.778
[SPEAKER_01]: There I was set up as a very bad example and it was the kiss of death for any prisoner to even look at me in front of the specifically selected sadistic guards.

01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:06.046
[SPEAKER_01]: For the first two weeks I worked all day, showing bits of fur together and then all light in the cookhouse.

01:08:06.466 --> 01:08:12.475
[SPEAKER_01]: Here the punishment was to stand on the hot brick ovens in bare feet and holding two large buckets of water.

01:08:13.484 --> 01:08:16.647
[SPEAKER_01]: with our very painful, very, very feet.

01:08:17.067 --> 01:08:18.428
[SPEAKER_01]: This was sheer hell.

01:08:18.969 --> 01:08:23.073
[SPEAKER_01]: I slept in little short naps wherever I could out of the sight of the guards.

01:08:23.133 --> 01:08:33.922
[SPEAKER_01]: About this time, the POW camp of Canadians in Yokohama, which had no doctor and who seen your POW as an RSM, ran into a bad session of sickness.

01:08:34.002 --> 01:08:39.487
[SPEAKER_01]: A group of the sick were moved to another camp, but in route, they stopped off at the discipline camp for a few days.

01:08:39.868 --> 01:08:43.491
[SPEAKER_01]: The day they arrived, they heard that I was in the camp

01:08:43.471 --> 01:08:49.337
[SPEAKER_01]: of them came to me in the shop where the officers were sewing the bits of fur together.

01:08:50.137 --> 01:09:09.276
[SPEAKER_01]: He threw the first salute between POWs that had been seen in that camp and explained that the Canadians had heard about my efforts on behalf of the POWs and I was, and as I was the first Canadian officer that had met since leaving Hong Kong, they would like to hold the parade for my inspection.

01:09:09.374 --> 01:09:12.719
[SPEAKER_01]: I tried to explain what this would mean, but to no avail.

01:09:13.400 --> 01:09:17.407
[SPEAKER_01]: Reluctantly I agreed, and he said they would be formed up in a few minutes.

01:09:17.988 --> 01:09:25.299
[SPEAKER_01]: They formed up in the open dirt area, which we use for roll calls, parades, and forming of work parties.

01:09:26.221 --> 01:09:33.492
[SPEAKER_01]: They were dirty, sick, ragged, starved, some had to be held up by their comrades, but they were all there.

01:09:35.058 --> 01:09:57.370
[SPEAKER_01]: As I expected, no sooner had we got started, then the storm broke in all its fury and the guards came charging into us like a bunch of raving maniacs, swinging fist clubs, rifle butts and kicking the daylights out of those who fell down, none of us minded, and when it was all over we crawled back into our huts to lick our wounds and to have a damn good laugh at the Japanese.

01:09:59.695 --> 01:10:04.802
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess one interpretation would be that it was an act of defiance and that may be right.

01:10:05.523 --> 01:10:14.595
[SPEAKER_01]: Bear in mind that these men were from the reserve units out of Montreal and Winnipeg and the majority of these cases, their military background was practically nil.

01:10:15.256 --> 01:10:29.314
[SPEAKER_01]: All had been reduced to the lowest state of civilization by their maltreatment and horrible environment and yet there was a pride in each of these men such that I had never seen

01:10:31.066 --> 01:10:33.351
[SPEAKER_01]: made me proud to be admitted into their ranks.

01:10:33.792 --> 01:10:45.936
[SPEAKER_01]: I might add that news of this parade spread like wildfire throughout the working camps in Japan and the rise in morale amongst POWs made life hell for the Japanese guards.

01:10:48.245 --> 01:10:51.868
[SPEAKER_01]: So, epic, epic.

01:10:52.549 --> 01:10:56.712
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is kind of portrayed, you know, a lot of this stuff that we've seen the movie Bridge on the Riverquite.

01:10:58.794 --> 01:10:59.975
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great classic movie.

01:11:00.095 --> 01:11:01.637
[SPEAKER_01]: It was one of my favorite movies as a kid.

01:11:01.977 --> 01:11:03.618
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a commando activity happening.

01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:09.624
[SPEAKER_01]: There's, you know, British soldiers in that movie.

01:11:09.644 --> 01:11:11.085
[SPEAKER_01]: It's British soldiers for the most part.

01:11:11.445 --> 01:11:12.246
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're doing this.

01:11:12.346 --> 01:11:16.750
[SPEAKER_01]: They're doing this type of behavior, you know.

01:11:16.730 --> 01:11:33.624
[SPEAKER_01]: Falling out showing the proper military respect and there's catching beat downs from the Japanese guards and whatnot But this is a just heroic effort and you can see how important it is to the troops that they just want to They want to be inspected by the officer, you know, like that's what we're doing.

01:11:33.865 --> 01:11:35.548
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't break us

01:11:39.747 --> 01:11:52.099
[SPEAKER_01]: The Ormori Discipline Camp was on a small island out of the Tokyo Harbor made from the silt and sand dredged up from the Tokyo Harbor and it was about 50 feet from the mainland.

01:11:52.500 --> 01:11:55.849
[SPEAKER_01]: There was an anti-aircraft battery on one of the

01:11:55.829 --> 01:12:00.159
[SPEAKER_01]: on one end and a search light battery on the other with our camps sandwiched in between.

01:12:00.580 --> 01:12:13.348
[SPEAKER_01]: We were housed in the standard pre-fabbed single story wood buildings used by the Japanese military and we were right opposite the main fighter base at Hedina Airport which protected the Tokyo Yokohama area.

01:12:13.328 --> 01:12:16.032
[SPEAKER_01]: with no markings whatsoever to show we were POWs.

01:12:16.473 --> 01:12:17.835
[SPEAKER_01]: We were extremely vulnerable.

01:12:18.255 --> 01:12:30.994
[SPEAKER_01]: And so whenever a single B-29 came over, obviously on a photo wrecky, we would run out into the open parade area and unbeknownst to the Japanese, we would form the letters P-O-W in hopes that this would show up in the photos.

01:12:33.057 --> 01:12:41.850
[SPEAKER_01]: Fire bombings and firestorms wiped out the entire area around our camp and the only thing that saved us was the 50 foot

01:12:42.657 --> 01:12:52.618
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole area around us was flat as a pancake exactly like our Northland after a big forest fire with no food, water, electricity, or places to work.

01:12:53.039 --> 01:13:02.438
[SPEAKER_01]: The Japs started to move some of us out into the outlying areas and as one of the bad actors, I was one of the first to go.

01:13:03.802 --> 01:13:12.678
[SPEAKER_01]: They took a bunch of us from various camps in the Tokyo area and put us into railway box cars, where we were jammed so that we had to take turns standing and sitting.

01:13:13.018 --> 01:13:19.690
[SPEAKER_01]: It was cold, no food, water, or sanitation facilities, and we were there for over 48 hours, bro.

01:13:19.710 --> 01:13:25.160
[SPEAKER_01]: 48 hours in a box car where you're packed in like sardines, and there's no bathroom.

01:13:25.861 --> 01:13:27.885
[SPEAKER_01]: No food, no water, no bathroom.

01:13:28.034 --> 01:13:34.364
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of us had a music dysentery or diarrhea and life soon became grim to say the least.

01:13:34.384 --> 01:13:41.876
[SPEAKER_01]: We were taken up into the mountains northwest of Tokyo and here we ended up on a sighting where we were able to get out and lie down in the ground.

01:13:41.896 --> 01:13:52.793
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the first opportunity I had to see what prisoners were there, their physical condition and then the sad realization that once again I was the senior POW.

01:13:52.773 --> 01:13:58.802
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a total of 280 POWs, a real mixed bag, and the physical condition was the worst I'd ever seen.

01:13:59.824 --> 01:14:02.548
[SPEAKER_01]: Some were blind from a lack of vitamin A.

01:14:03.650 --> 01:14:08.317
[SPEAKER_01]: Some had lost a hand or a foot from Barry Barry, followed by gang green.

01:14:08.918 --> 01:14:12.503
[SPEAKER_01]: All were skinned and bones from prolonged malnutrition.

01:14:12.483 --> 01:14:21.405
[SPEAKER_01]: As we were the first batch out of Tokyo camps, the common dance had unloaded all their sick, invulids, and misfits.

01:14:21.746 --> 01:14:29.344
[SPEAKER_01]: We were now jammed on the flatbed trucks and taken off to our camp in the mountains at a place named Suwa.

01:14:29.847 --> 01:14:36.657
[SPEAKER_01]: As it was high in the mountains, it was cold, especially at night when we might even have a thin coating of ice on any open water.

01:14:37.098 --> 01:14:38.721
[SPEAKER_01]: The camp was only half built.

01:14:39.181 --> 01:14:42.466
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the buildings had no roof, some had no side walls.

01:14:42.767 --> 01:14:45.671
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no kitchen, cooking, or sanitation facilities.

01:14:46.072 --> 01:14:52.041
[SPEAKER_01]: The wiring consisted of a single line running through the camp with one or two 40-watt bulbs in each building.

01:14:52.021 --> 01:14:56.812
[SPEAKER_01]: It was pouring rain, everyone was soaked, called miserable starving, and filthy beyond belief.

01:14:57.654 --> 01:15:02.384
[SPEAKER_01]: The barracks were of little protection, and there was no straw on the bare boards for us to lie on.

01:15:02.424 --> 01:15:04.950
[SPEAKER_01]: The floors were just mud.

01:15:08.170 --> 01:15:09.852
[SPEAKER_01]: The next day we tried to fix up the camp.

01:15:09.912 --> 01:15:14.739
[SPEAKER_01]: We found that we were on the side of a mountain, which was all terrorist with rice and vegetable patties.

01:15:14.919 --> 01:15:19.746
[SPEAKER_01]: Our water supply was a small creek that ran down through the patties and then through the camp.

01:15:19.806 --> 01:15:28.238
[SPEAKER_01]: Since the fertilizer they used was human excreta, we had to set up a system that would at least boil our drinking water.

01:15:28.218 --> 01:15:32.827
[SPEAKER_01]: We tried to make our barracks as airtight as possible with mud, strong grass, we had no heat whatsoever.

01:15:33.127 --> 01:15:36.133
[SPEAKER_01]: And we set up the most basic washing and for latrine facilities.

01:15:36.453 --> 01:15:37.876
[SPEAKER_01]: The work detail started at once.

01:15:37.896 --> 01:15:47.053
[SPEAKER_01]: The prisoners left at camp at 7am each morning, walked down to the side of the mountain, and up the side of the next one to get to an open face mine where they dug out or which was some kind of white metal.

01:15:47.033 --> 01:15:57.775
[SPEAKER_01]: The path between the camp and the mine was all broken rough stone and with no shoes only wooden clogs the number of our seriously infected feet went completely out of control.

01:15:58.096 --> 01:16:04.890
[SPEAKER_01]: Our food ration was the lowest I had encountered and with no medicines or medical treatment this was indeed a death camp.

01:16:07.908 --> 01:16:12.377
[SPEAKER_01]: The first week, three men died in our number of seriously ill doubled.

01:16:13.118 --> 01:16:22.035
[SPEAKER_01]: It was our conservative but well-considered estimate that we would be extremely luckily lucky if just one of us would survive the coming winter of 1945.

01:16:26.690 --> 01:16:33.680
[SPEAKER_01]: As the war started to go against the Japanese, and the allies began their island hopping campaign toward Japan.

01:16:34.101 --> 01:16:43.915
[SPEAKER_01]: The orders had gone out from Tokyo headquarters to all military that they were never to retreat, but rather fight to the last man, even with suicidal attacks.

01:16:44.336 --> 01:16:47.741
[SPEAKER_01]: The Kamakaze aircraft was a good example of this philosophy.

01:16:48.162 --> 01:16:52.528
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, the orders were that at the first sign of a landing.

01:16:52.508 --> 01:17:00.464
[SPEAKER_01]: and attack on their area, they were to kill all POWs in turnies, sick wounded incompetence, etc.

01:17:00.545 --> 01:17:05.134
[SPEAKER_01]: so that every able body Japanese could fight to the death without hindrance.

01:17:06.498 --> 01:17:11.264
[SPEAKER_01]: In the POW camps, we had to dig trenches and machine guns were placed at each end.

01:17:11.605 --> 01:17:15.870
[SPEAKER_01]: We were then to be marched into the trenches, doused with gasoline and set on fire.

01:17:17.032 --> 01:17:19.435
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyone trying to escape would be killed by machine guns.

01:17:19.956 --> 01:17:26.785
[SPEAKER_01]: Proof of this policy was more than evident in the Japanese occupied islands where overrun

01:17:26.765 --> 01:17:37.281
[SPEAKER_01]: that which were overrun by the Americans where they found all the POWs sick and wounded captives and Japanese all massacred by the Japanese as they retreated.

01:17:44.095 --> 01:17:53.409
[SPEAKER_01]: With a Japanese surrender, we took over our camp to ensure our survival and concentrated on getting ourselves physically fit enough to get out of there into the hands of the allies.

01:17:53.829 --> 01:17:59.337
[SPEAKER_01]: We took over all the food we could find and ran a kitchen on a 24 hour basis.

01:17:59.398 --> 01:18:03.383
[SPEAKER_01]: We bought a pig, a horse and a cow which we slaughtered and put into the stew pot.

01:18:03.744 --> 01:18:07.249
[SPEAKER_01]: Believe me, everything went in with the possible exception of skin and hooves.

01:18:07.810 --> 01:18:10.314
[SPEAKER_01]: We scoured the countryside for all medical supplies.

01:18:10.354 --> 01:18:12.617
[SPEAKER_01]: We could beg borrowers by just to...

01:18:12.597 --> 01:18:20.948
[SPEAKER_01]: or just expropriate so that our doctor and his helpers could work day and night to bring seriously ill back to his good health possible.

01:18:20.968 --> 01:18:25.534
[SPEAKER_01]: We got yellow paint and painted big POW signs on the roofs of our buildings.

01:18:25.854 --> 01:18:29.659
[SPEAKER_01]: We made flags out of old big sheets and colored them with crayons.

01:18:29.699 --> 01:18:32.022
[SPEAKER_01]: We put these up on flagpoles and we waited.

01:18:32.062 --> 01:18:38.470
[SPEAKER_01]: The U.S. Navy planes soon found us and we were showered with bundles from heaven.

01:18:38.450 --> 01:18:44.820
[SPEAKER_01]: containing clothing, food, medicines, and goodies such as cigarettes and chocolate bars.

01:18:47.325 --> 01:18:54.256
[SPEAKER_01]: When the doctor felt we were as fit as he could get us, we made our move and came out overnight by train to Tokyo.

01:18:55.177 --> 01:19:04.052
[SPEAKER_01]: When we couldn't find any allied forces near the Tokyo Railway station, we moved over to this station for the electric train and went to Yokohama.

01:19:04.032 --> 01:19:09.441
[SPEAKER_01]: Here we went outside the station sat down and flew our flags on some bamboo poles we had liberated.

01:19:09.862 --> 01:19:11.144
[SPEAKER_01]: It was not all that easy.

01:19:11.445 --> 01:19:21.822
[SPEAKER_01]: You must remember that we had some prisoners who were blind, some minus a footer hand, some unable to walk on feet, painful from berry berry and all of us at the end of our endurance.

01:19:21.802 --> 01:19:28.534
[SPEAKER_01]: Thus, we had to come into your trucks, wagons, bicycle trailers, anything that we could lay our hands on to carry our sick and invulids.

01:19:29.135 --> 01:19:34.004
[SPEAKER_01]: The healthiest POWs carry the Japanese guards rifles, just in case we met up with trouble.

01:19:34.365 --> 01:19:39.574
[SPEAKER_01]: As once we left the relative safe confines of our camps, we were on our own and God help us.

01:19:40.938 --> 01:19:48.048
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't have to wait long outside the Yokohama station before a Jeep came by with a U.S. Army officer and a big radio on it.

01:19:48.349 --> 01:20:00.246
[SPEAKER_01]: We identified ourselves, the chap got on his radio and we were soon inundated with buses, trucks and ambulances, with took us down to a reception center, set up in Yokohama docks.

01:20:00.226 --> 01:20:03.431
[SPEAKER_01]: We were then told to get out and go into the dock area.

01:20:03.852 --> 01:20:16.092
[SPEAKER_01]: The next thing I knew are senior POWNCO called the troops to attention, formed them up into marching order, turned the parade over to me, and we marched into the dock area with our homemade flags flying.

01:20:17.776 --> 01:20:21.645
[SPEAKER_01]: We were dirty, tired, clothing and rags and tatters.

01:20:21.965 --> 01:20:25.854
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of the men had to be supported or semi-carried, but they were all there.

01:20:26.074 --> 01:20:32.629
[SPEAKER_01]: All those who could possibly walk as the fine proud a force that could never be beaten.

01:20:43.105 --> 01:20:47.132
[SPEAKER_01]: The first thing was to strip off of all our clothes and throw them into an incinerator.

01:20:47.973 --> 01:20:51.679
[SPEAKER_01]: Next they removed all our body hair and put us through a delousing station.

01:20:51.699 --> 01:20:54.604
[SPEAKER_01]: From there we got into a hot shower with lots of hot water and soap.

01:20:55.326 --> 01:21:09.349
[SPEAKER_01]: While stark naked we were confronted by a horde of doctors and nurses who segregated us into groups depending upon our medical condition, then into a room with all the clothes in the world where we could take as much of everything we wanted.

01:21:09.329 --> 01:21:14.426
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, we're given a thorough interrogation by a team of intelligence and war crime officers.

01:21:15.128 --> 01:21:17.175
[SPEAKER_01]: All this time, this was going on.

01:21:17.215 --> 01:21:21.027
[SPEAKER_01]: There were red cross girls going around dishing out cigarettes and chocolate bars.

01:21:22.407 --> 01:21:28.899
[SPEAKER_01]: I was taken to the hospital ship USS Marigold as I was on my feet and don't even remember going on board.

01:21:28.959 --> 01:21:32.626
[SPEAKER_01]: I do recall that I was taken into a cabin which I had all to myself.

01:21:33.006 --> 01:21:38.717
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the first time since being captured that I was all on my own, except when I was in solitary confinement.

01:21:39.458 --> 01:21:44.247
[SPEAKER_01]: I had pajamas and clean ones too, the first time in three and a half years.

01:21:46.032 --> 01:22:00.328
[SPEAKER_01]: I was clean, really clean, and clear of ice, fleas, and bed bugs for the first time in three and a half years, and finally I had absolutely no responsibilities for anyone other than myself for the first time in three and a half years.

01:22:05.371 --> 01:22:12.521
[SPEAKER_01]: Our camp was unique in having a hundred percent survival from the instant that the war ended until we were recovered by Americans.

01:22:13.623 --> 01:22:19.191
[SPEAKER_01]: This was only due to the full cooperation and self-discipline of all the men in that camp.

01:22:20.152 --> 01:22:33.471
[SPEAKER_01]: By way of explanation, the Americans were very cautious and stayed in the Yokohama dock area until they were certain that Japanese military and civilians would accept the surrender and not kill POWs and attorneys as they had been ordered to.

01:22:33.451 --> 01:22:43.848
[SPEAKER_01]: A large part of the Japanese military would not accept surrender and vowed to fight to the finish, while a tremendous number of civilians who had lost members of their families, especially in the fire bombing were very hostile.

01:22:44.389 --> 01:22:52.742
[SPEAKER_01]: For those POWs who were inland, such as ourselves, you either had to wait a long period of time to be recovered or try and beat your way out.

01:22:52.840 --> 01:22:58.930
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm afraid that in the majority of camps, it was every man from himself, and in a lot of cases this was fatal.

01:22:59.231 --> 01:23:02.356
[SPEAKER_01]: The civilians retaliated as they did as the military.

01:23:02.416 --> 01:23:06.323
[SPEAKER_01]: Some POWs ate poisonous food or drank wood alcohol and died.

01:23:06.363 --> 01:23:11.912
[SPEAKER_01]: Others started out on journeys far beyond their physical capability and died and route to freedom.

01:23:11.892 --> 01:23:22.993
[SPEAKER_01]: You must remember that it was most difficult if not impossible to control men who had been through four years of sheer and utter hell, especially when there was absolutely no way of enforcing any discipline.

01:23:24.456 --> 01:23:34.575
[SPEAKER_01]: During the war, over 30% of all the POWs and attorneys taken by the Japanese were either killed or died in the prison camps and thus never did make it home.

01:23:37.205 --> 01:23:47.581
[SPEAKER_01]: Here I think the epitaph on the memorial in the Allied Wargrave Cemetery in Kuhima, Burma, where over 1,500 Allied Service Men are buried, sums it up very well.

01:23:48.062 --> 01:23:55.433
[SPEAKER_01]: When you go home, tell them of us and say, for your tomorrow, we gave our today.

01:24:00.256 --> 01:24:19.280
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, even the fact that, you know, he doesn't explain it in too much detail, but the fact that when they were done with a war was over, they stayed there, they got food, they got healthy, they got checked by a doctor, and then they moved as a unit with their own people, with guards, to get out.

01:24:20.101 --> 01:24:26.989
[SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of the other prisoner camps, he's talking about like, all the wars over, it's every man from themselves, and they're just going to go forward, they're not healthy enough, and a bunch of them died.

01:24:27.948 --> 01:24:38.100
[SPEAKER_01]: So that discipline to get into, that's like the wall of the jungle, versus the team law and the leadership law, and trying to do things together, because we're stronger together.

01:24:42.024 --> 01:24:43.966
[SPEAKER_01]: Now he kind of gets into the leadership portion of this.

01:24:45.588 --> 01:24:56.841
[SPEAKER_01]: Catch phrases are wonderful things that by way of trying to summarize this whole thing, if I had to use one to define my concept of leadership, it would be the three seas,

01:24:57.648 --> 01:25:11.368
[SPEAKER_01]: First his character is my firm belief that the true and solid foundation is integrity, or his Shakespeare had the Palonia say in Hamlet, this above all else to their own self be true.

01:25:11.668 --> 01:25:18.057
[SPEAKER_01]: And it must follow as the night the day thou can't not then be false to any man.

01:25:19.960 --> 01:25:27.030
[SPEAKER_01]: Say what you mean, which is telling the truth as against the telling of lies and mean what you say, which is integrity.

01:25:29.035 --> 01:25:39.932
[SPEAKER_01]: having the moral fiber to face the issues of right and wrong and then the courage to stand up firm and strong regardless of consequences to yourself.

01:25:40.112 --> 01:25:40.673
[SPEAKER_01]: That's character.

01:25:41.153 --> 01:25:41.734
[SPEAKER_01]: That's number one.

01:25:42.015 --> 01:25:48.765
[SPEAKER_01]: The second competence, having the necessary knowledge, education, training, and judgment to make and to make the full use of them.

01:25:48.745 --> 01:26:02.167
[SPEAKER_01]: No matter how large or small the problem, to ensure that you have given it your fullest consideration, once you have done this and made your decision, then to carry it out with a very best of your ability, know what you are doing and how to do it.

01:26:02.187 --> 01:26:04.871
[SPEAKER_01]: 3.

01:26:05.192 --> 01:26:06.113
[SPEAKER_01]: Comrade Ship

01:26:07.274 --> 01:26:26.548
[SPEAKER_01]: taking a full interest in your subordinates, having true respect and concern for them to the extent that it all times and in all circumstances you put their welfare and their well-being ahead of your own regardless of the cost or inconvenience to yourself.

01:26:29.583 --> 01:26:30.605
[SPEAKER_01]: those the three seas.

01:26:31.205 --> 01:26:44.786
[SPEAKER_01]: Once these are firmly in place, then those other important aspects such as discipline and self-discipline, pride in yourself and your unit, self-respect and respect for both your superiors and subordinates.

01:26:45.888 --> 01:26:55.843
[SPEAKER_01]: Proper dress and department at all times, all these will develop and strengthen as they feed on one another until what I call true leadership emerges.

01:26:58.237 --> 01:26:59.560
[SPEAKER_01]: live by these precepts.

01:27:00.181 --> 01:27:13.386
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a member of the Canadian forces devoted to the well-being of your fellow Canadians and the preservation of our Canadian way of life, you will not only attain true self-respect, but also the respect of everyone with whom you associate.

01:27:14.929 --> 01:27:17.334
[SPEAKER_01]: You can never have a better goal in life.

01:27:18.135 --> 01:27:19.097
[SPEAKER_01]: Canada needs you.

01:27:20.562 --> 01:27:37.260
[SPEAKER_01]: You who will be the leaders, the protectors and defenders of our country, and in the years 2,000 AD, it needs to, it needs your youth courage and energy, but there's also a desperate need for yourself discipline.

01:27:38.141 --> 01:27:45.169
[SPEAKER_01]: Your discipline of the mind, your character, your integrity, insure your leadership.

01:27:48.187 --> 01:27:53.716
[SPEAKER_01]: As I look around this room, I have absolutely no qualms about the future of our service, admirable Halsey.

01:27:54.878 --> 01:28:10.465
[SPEAKER_01]: The famous World War II admiral of the fleet of the U.S. fleet in the Pacific once said, quote, there are no great men, there are only great challenges ordinary men are forced to buy circumstances to meet end quote.

01:28:13.803 --> 01:28:29.209
[SPEAKER_01]: As the history of our service shows, there has never, ever been nor will there ever be, any shortage of ordinary men and women such as our gathered here who are ready, willing and most capable to take up the challenges they will be forced to face.

01:28:30.992 --> 01:28:32.875
[SPEAKER_01]: Per Ardua Adastra.

01:28:34.373 --> 01:28:36.497
[SPEAKER_01]: through adversity to the stars.

01:28:37.519 --> 01:28:41.247
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the heritage which has been entrusted into your hands.

01:28:41.928 --> 01:28:45.756
[SPEAKER_01]: Guard it well as I have every confidence you will.

01:28:46.838 --> 01:28:54.593
[SPEAKER_01]: Ladies and gentlemen, it has been an honor and privilege to have shared these thoughts with you, bone shance at Missy Bien.

01:28:59.028 --> 01:29:12.969
[SPEAKER_01]: So, as I said, lots of, uh, lots of very good lessons in there, lots of reiterations of principles you've heard before, um, true leadership, the three-sees character competence and comradeship.

01:29:13.610 --> 01:29:16.554
[SPEAKER_01]: I also find it interesting that he quotes Admiral Holsey.

01:29:17.776 --> 01:29:27.010
[SPEAKER_01]: There are no great men, there are only great challenges, ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet.

01:29:28.070 --> 01:29:39.690
[SPEAKER_01]: It kind of reminds me that if you're not, like in many cases, we will not reach our potential unless we're forced to do it.

01:29:41.253 --> 01:29:41.934
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?

01:29:42.435 --> 01:29:44.458
[SPEAKER_01]: That's unfortunate.

01:29:45.113 --> 01:29:59.528
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, like one of the chances that you echo Charles are going to get put in some circumstances that are so dramatic and so severe that you are forced to rise to a level that that is impossible to you right now.

01:30:00.487 --> 01:30:08.916
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I talk about, you know, we had Alex Honoled on the podcast, and he climbed L-CAP with no ropes, right, free solo.

01:30:09.577 --> 01:30:16.044
[SPEAKER_01]: And for a while, I was saying that that was the greatest feet that any, greatest physical feet that any human has ever accomplished.

01:30:16.484 --> 01:30:20.949
[SPEAKER_01]: But later, I, like I first said that once, I was like a hold on a second.

01:30:20.969 --> 01:30:21.309
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not.

01:30:22.611 --> 01:30:29.498
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the greatest physical

01:30:29.478 --> 01:30:39.532
[SPEAKER_01]: When you look at any one of these prisoners aboard, what they did was infinitely harder than him climbing out cap, but they weren't, they weren't volunteer.

01:30:39.592 --> 01:30:42.516
[SPEAKER_01]: They were forced by circumstances into these situations.

01:30:43.917 --> 01:30:53.290
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we have to voluntarily, put ourselves in situations that are going to be so adverse in severe that they make us better than they make us push ourselves.

01:30:53.450 --> 01:30:54.051
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we got to do.

01:30:56.107 --> 01:30:56.909
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're going to do.

01:30:57.169 --> 01:31:00.617
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the role that rolls right into the through adversity to the stars.

01:31:00.637 --> 01:31:03.945
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the official motto of the Royal Canadian Air Force, right?

01:31:04.205 --> 01:31:05.889
[SPEAKER_01]: But you don't get to the stars without adversity.

01:31:08.275 --> 01:31:09.477
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to step up.

01:31:09.497 --> 01:31:12.063
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to lean into adversity.

01:31:12.304 --> 01:31:13.727
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to look for those challenges.

01:31:15.209 --> 01:31:22.082
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, when you come up against these challenges, whether it's like having to avoid a muffin at the Super Bowl party, the last muffin.

01:31:22.102 --> 01:31:23.365
[SPEAKER_01]: The last muffin, right?

01:31:24.346 --> 01:31:24.707
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

01:31:24.847 --> 01:31:35.648
[SPEAKER_01]: You can then reach back into history, and you can think about the incredible suffering that has been endured by human beings throughout history.

01:31:37.366 --> 01:31:50.274
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can use that as a testament to why you can step up and you can do it more and you can achieve more than you ever thought.

01:31:52.639 --> 01:31:54.162
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what we're doing.

01:31:55.024 --> 01:31:57.990
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that it's kind of like a little bit of a metaphor.

01:31:59.033 --> 01:31:59.834
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not even a metaphor.

01:31:59.874 --> 01:32:02.378
[SPEAKER_02]: It's actually just a principle that applies to so many things.

01:32:03.460 --> 01:32:04.722
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, yeah, your day to day.

01:32:04.762 --> 01:32:07.786
[SPEAKER_02]: How many times in your day to day do you have to dig deep?

01:32:07.806 --> 01:32:10.531
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, probably than 20 reps. Quot day.

01:32:10.591 --> 01:32:13.976
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but that's that there's something to be said for that.

01:32:14.216 --> 01:32:21.227
[SPEAKER_02]: The 20 reps squat day because the I mean obviously depends on how much weight you're doing, but the real 20 reps squat day.

01:32:22.473 --> 01:32:30.201
[SPEAKER_02]: That has probably more value than you might notice on the surface, you know, because if you're not used to digging deep, you can be like, there's no way I'm going to endure that.

01:32:30.401 --> 01:32:33.525
[SPEAKER_02]: And even if I do, I ain't going back, not even like, not even close.

01:32:33.545 --> 01:32:40.512
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why like, you know, when you're the kid, and you do like sports or something, you've got to run a condition, you're like, right, this sucks so bad, right now.

01:32:40.873 --> 01:32:45.237
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's like, I don't want to be the guy who doesn't do it, or quits, or just some lame stuff.

01:32:45.297 --> 01:32:47.940
[SPEAKER_02]: And also, you kind of learn,

01:32:47.920 --> 01:32:51.346
[SPEAKER_02]: to kind of start to accept this adversity.

01:32:51.707 --> 01:32:55.534
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's like, yeah, like you can kind of drop on it when you have to get something done.

01:32:55.814 --> 01:32:58.419
[SPEAKER_02]: Any recognized kind of how it all works too after a while.

01:32:58.960 --> 01:33:03.448
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're not used to it, but it's such an assault on you, and then you kind of, you know, you can't deal with it.

01:33:03.428 --> 01:33:20.020
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's one thing you gotta watch out for, you know, however, when it's really easy for us in this day and age to kind of avoid the discomfort, you know, when you can press a button on your phone and you can have freaking whatever food show up in 38 minutes.

01:33:20.000 --> 01:33:22.083
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm on whatever you dream of.

01:33:22.524 --> 01:33:24.047
[SPEAKER_01]: It will be at your house in 38 minutes.

01:33:24.487 --> 01:33:26.691
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, your house is temperature controlled.

01:33:27.192 --> 01:33:28.494
[SPEAKER_01]: Your couch is comfortable.

01:33:28.534 --> 01:33:30.176
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got a special pillow for your head.

01:33:30.216 --> 01:33:32.640
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got to let a weighted blanket or some shit.

01:33:32.660 --> 01:33:33.241
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?

01:33:33.261 --> 01:33:34.483
[SPEAKER_01]: Like get crazy.

01:33:35.044 --> 01:33:36.787
[SPEAKER_01]: It's because the pursuit of comfort is out of control.

01:33:37.408 --> 01:33:41.755
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if that's if you're living in that world and you're not testing your adversity.

01:33:41.735 --> 01:33:45.319
[SPEAKER_01]: then you're gonna win that adversity hit you which it will can have problems.

01:33:45.840 --> 01:33:47.622
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, you're just not gonna get anything done.

01:33:47.802 --> 01:33:49.765
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just not going to get anything done.

01:33:50.165 --> 01:34:06.424
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that's something that'll to me, you know, it's recognizable more often where because you can kind of stay in that little gray comfort zone, you know, and kind of kind of make it, you know, I mean, you'll have these little issues here and there that you're like all right, I'll have to kind of do with it whatever, but yeah, you won't get anything done.

01:34:06.504 --> 01:34:09.548
[SPEAKER_02]: If you see something like kind of like drastic to get done,

01:34:09.528 --> 01:34:10.830
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll get it done away.

01:34:10.990 --> 01:34:20.566
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll just get done like kind of the minimum standard you just get the minimum like you'll pay the rent Yeah, you know, you'll you'll just pay the rent.

01:34:20.586 --> 01:34:23.611
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you're not going to like improve It's not going to get better.

01:34:24.051 --> 01:34:27.537
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not able to head above water barely keep your head above water

01:34:27.517 --> 01:34:30.200
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not gonna like this little story.

01:34:30.220 --> 01:34:39.471
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm about to tell you, but and I still do this from time to time So we'll get You'll get we'll get crab legs from time to time, right?

01:34:39.491 --> 01:34:51.145
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, crab legs for dinner or whatever for some special thing whatever Christmas dinner will say And so what I'd always do for whatever reason, I think I recognize this principle as fresh crab legs go

01:34:51.125 --> 01:35:12.964
[SPEAKER_02]: So I, you know, you got to peel the crab legs or whatever you got to crack them and take the crab leg meat out of the shell So I would take it all out of the shell first You know the typical protocol is crack one eat one crack one eat one, you know, but I would take them all out of the shell first And I'd have this pile of D-shelled crab legs and you can just enjoy the crab legs seems same

01:35:12.944 --> 01:35:19.796
[SPEAKER_02]: that's like getting a big thing done rather than just keeping your head above water.

01:35:19.896 --> 01:35:24.885
[SPEAKER_02]: Seems like meanwhile everyone's cracking shells and doing all this stuff, meanwhile my shells days are gone.

01:35:25.326 --> 01:35:29.974
[SPEAKER_02]: All I got is this pile of this, you know, fruitful crab legs, you see what I'm saying?

01:35:29.954 --> 01:35:31.757
[SPEAKER_02]: Rob, I'm telling you, right?

01:35:31.777 --> 01:35:34.721
[SPEAKER_02]: You can kind of like organize your life like that.

01:35:34.741 --> 01:35:54.612
[SPEAKER_02]: You can get to go to crack those shells, bro In principle, in principle, you basically you're front loading the work right and putting yourself through this adversity We're now you can get the full benefit and pay off from that adversity rather than crack one eat on crack on, you know like living minute to minute day to day, you know, kind of a thing

01:35:54.592 --> 01:35:55.233
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what I'm saying.

01:35:55.253 --> 01:35:56.213
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want that to happen.

01:35:56.874 --> 01:35:58.796
[SPEAKER_01]: Lean into the adversity.

01:35:58.876 --> 01:35:59.516
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're doing.

01:36:00.958 --> 01:36:06.923
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, when you do lean into the adversity, when you push yourself mentally physically, you're gonna need a lot of fuel.

01:36:07.363 --> 01:36:08.384
[SPEAKER_01]: You need the right fuel.

01:36:08.644 --> 01:36:10.105
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, check out jockelfield.com.

01:36:10.306 --> 01:36:11.086
[SPEAKER_01]: Get whatever you need.

01:36:11.467 --> 01:36:18.593
[SPEAKER_01]: I am currently drinking a go and a hydrate because I already did the death reset.

01:36:18.833 --> 01:36:24.598
[SPEAKER_01]: I did a workout, then I did the death reset workout,

01:36:24.578 --> 01:36:37.750
[SPEAKER_01]: It was three minutes of jump squats, three minutes of lunges, three minutes of jumping jacks, two minutes of jump squats, two minutes of lunges, two minutes of jumping jacks, one minute of jump squats, one minute.

01:36:38.511 --> 01:36:48.019
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you do three minutes of jump squats, like out of the gate you're smoked, you smoked, because that's one of those things that's absorbing all the energy that you have.

01:36:48.439 --> 01:36:54.585
[SPEAKER_01]: Each jump, like three minutes of jumping is high as you can, by the end of those three

01:36:54.565 --> 01:36:57.188
[SPEAKER_01]: Going to the extent of my toes.

01:36:57.208 --> 01:36:57.729
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?

01:36:57.969 --> 01:36:58.549
[SPEAKER_00]: It's exhausted.

01:36:59.110 --> 01:37:01.032
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so you're gonna need fuel right now.

01:37:01.172 --> 01:37:05.998
[SPEAKER_01]: I am deep with a hydrate and a jocco fuel go energy drink.

01:37:06.198 --> 01:37:06.959
[SPEAKER_01]: We got everything that you need.

01:37:07.800 --> 01:37:10.263
[SPEAKER_01]: We got time war, which I highly recommend.

01:37:10.703 --> 01:37:13.366
[SPEAKER_01]: We got joint warfare, got super curl.

01:37:13.426 --> 01:37:14.267
[SPEAKER_01]: We got everything that you need.

01:37:14.287 --> 01:37:16.790
[SPEAKER_01]: We got collagen and colostrum.

01:37:17.210 --> 01:37:20.915
[SPEAKER_01]: We got all the products that you need to fuel your goals.

01:37:21.776 --> 01:37:22.516
[SPEAKER_01]: We got creatine.

01:37:22.777 --> 01:37:23.998
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm currently.

01:37:23.978 --> 01:37:26.362
[SPEAKER_01]: Stacking 20 grams 10 in the morning 10 in the night.

01:37:26.563 --> 01:37:27.284
[SPEAKER_01]: Where are you at?

01:37:27.304 --> 01:37:27.905
[SPEAKER_02]: Well 15.

01:37:27.925 --> 01:37:29.929
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, is he stepped it up before you were 10 to 15?

01:37:29.949 --> 01:37:31.391
[SPEAKER_02]: He stepped up more than anything.

01:37:31.431 --> 01:37:37.703
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually re-valuated it because you look at all like how you scoop it Oh, yeah, you got to leave you scoop it.

01:37:37.843 --> 01:37:40.307
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I think I'm at 50.

01:37:40.568 --> 01:37:41.509
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, feeling good.

01:37:41.569 --> 01:37:48.101
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, he's strong Creating in hydrate always running off that special morning check.

01:37:48.121 --> 01:37:48.602
[SPEAKER_02]: There we go

01:37:48.582 --> 01:37:51.525
[SPEAKER_01]: So check out jockofield.com, also check out originusa.com.

01:37:52.306 --> 01:37:55.009
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to buy stuff that's made by communism.

01:37:55.490 --> 01:37:56.811
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get stuff that's made by freedom.

01:37:58.613 --> 01:38:02.958
[SPEAKER_01]: We make our jeans or boots or who make everything here in America.

01:38:03.218 --> 01:38:06.862
[SPEAKER_01]: Originusa.com, get yourself a pair of Delta jeans.

01:38:07.763 --> 01:38:08.404
[SPEAKER_01]: Delta 68.

01:38:08.584 --> 01:38:10.526
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I recommend.

01:38:10.907 --> 01:38:18.235
[SPEAKER_01]: Freedom comfortable, cruising, whatever you're doing.

01:38:18.215 --> 01:38:18.896
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what we're doing.

01:38:19.197 --> 01:38:20.679
[SPEAKER_01]: Check out originusa.com.

01:38:20.699 --> 01:38:24.586
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only made in America, but made from materials that are American materials.

01:38:25.507 --> 01:38:27.831
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is what we're doing.

01:38:27.851 --> 01:38:33.641
[SPEAKER_01]: Our forefathers fought and sacrificed and died for our way of life.

01:38:34.743 --> 01:38:36.606
[SPEAKER_01]: And we need to reinvest in that way of life.

01:38:36.767 --> 01:38:40.493
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to keep the ability to manufacture, which we lost for a little while, but we're bringing it back.

01:38:40.642 --> 01:38:42.630
[SPEAKER_01]: or to newsa.com, check it out, be American.

01:38:43.312 --> 01:38:43.855
[SPEAKER_02]: It's true.

01:38:43.875 --> 01:38:46.244
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, jugglestore.com.

01:38:46.264 --> 01:38:50.601
[SPEAKER_02]: This little equals freight look we're representing on this path, whether you're doing Dephrie set or not by the way.

01:38:51.391 --> 01:38:56.637
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I didn't talk to you about this, maybe because there's a grand prize winner right for Defri set.

01:38:56.977 --> 01:38:58.739
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll offer like a prize from the store.

01:38:59.059 --> 01:39:01.101
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I know I'm good off I just don't know what yet.

01:39:01.181 --> 01:39:02.102
[SPEAKER_02]: Gotta be worth it though.

01:39:02.322 --> 01:39:05.566
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't be like, oh, here's a, you know, one patch or something.

01:39:05.666 --> 01:39:06.387
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a little bit bigger.

01:39:06.467 --> 01:39:07.648
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, talk with store.

01:39:08.089 --> 01:39:11.072
[SPEAKER_02]: This one equals freedom, shirts, hats hoodies, good.

01:39:12.033 --> 01:39:13.354
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got a few versions of these now.

01:39:13.414 --> 01:39:17.078
[SPEAKER_02]: The shorts, the store got developed

01:39:17.058 --> 01:39:24.252
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, jockelstore.com is where you can get this stuff some good stuff on there some new stuff coming to by the way, so sign up for the e-mail us.

01:39:24.412 --> 01:39:32.468
[SPEAKER_01]: I noticed you made it Instagram account for the jockel store, which is a jockel.store jockel.store and then in I would say in about.

01:39:32.448 --> 01:39:41.538
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, next year this time I'm going to change it to just deaf core, you can say that that by that time everybody's just going to know It seems okay.

01:39:41.558 --> 01:39:42.219
[SPEAKER_02]: Chocolate store right now.

01:39:42.239 --> 01:39:42.679
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you waiting?

01:39:43.160 --> 01:39:45.723
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, I feel like it's kind of straightforward.

01:39:45.763 --> 01:39:52.611
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but you're like you're putting all this effort into getting the word out, but then you're going to change the word That don't want to go sensitive.

01:39:52.631 --> 01:39:54.793
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to slowly change the word to the content.

01:39:54.773 --> 01:39:55.854
[SPEAKER_02]: But hey, look, I don't know.

01:39:55.874 --> 01:40:01.582
[SPEAKER_02]: I just thought of that like just now because really that's what it is But I just feel like if it's Jocco's story.

01:40:01.602 --> 01:40:02.704
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of like clearer.

01:40:02.944 --> 01:40:03.765
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're like, okay.

01:40:03.785 --> 01:40:04.686
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the jam.

01:40:04.786 --> 01:40:06.689
[SPEAKER_02]: You seem to say yes.

01:40:06.769 --> 01:40:09.152
[SPEAKER_02]: So when you go in there, oh, yeah, follow on Instagram.

01:40:09.172 --> 01:40:16.201
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, if you're on Instagram, you know, so here's the thing, you're putting up pictures and stuff from like BTS, whatever they say.

01:40:16.442 --> 01:40:18.144
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes behind the scenes sometimes.

01:40:18.204 --> 01:40:18.925
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, bro.

01:40:18.905 --> 01:40:24.898
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, okay, so if you're gonna be on Instagram and I found this out kind of naturally, which is a good deal.

01:40:25.486 --> 01:40:26.307
[SPEAKER_02]: the ground.

01:40:26.327 --> 01:40:29.192
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that you can make the algorithm work for you.

01:40:29.673 --> 01:40:33.098
[SPEAKER_02]: You just got to be disciplined up with your consumption diet.

01:40:33.659 --> 01:40:39.508
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I would do is like I would like watch these little little little video editing tips, right?

01:40:39.528 --> 01:40:40.470
[SPEAKER_02]: Just out of interest.

01:40:40.730 --> 01:40:43.154
[SPEAKER_02]: And then after a while, that's all I'm seeing, which is good.

01:40:43.375 --> 01:40:43.835
[SPEAKER_02]: Same same.

01:40:44.316 --> 01:40:47.341
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what I try to do with this with this jacco.store.

01:40:47.361 --> 01:40:48.342
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the username there.

01:40:48.803 --> 01:40:51.207
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you follow that, if you followed,

01:40:51.389 --> 01:40:56.400
[SPEAKER_02]: Jocquistore, your consumption diet is gonna be on the path.

01:40:56.420 --> 01:40:57.041
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the same.

01:40:57.241 --> 01:41:06.922
[SPEAKER_02]: Either way, some good stuff, whether you follow or not, good stuff on there, Jocquistore.com, also the shirt locker, which is the membership scenario or subscriptions scenario, getting new design every month.

01:41:06.942 --> 01:41:09.347
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good one, so check that one out.

01:41:09.327 --> 01:41:10.409
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got some books.

01:41:10.429 --> 01:41:11.711
[SPEAKER_01]: I've written a bunch of books about leadership.

01:41:11.731 --> 01:41:14.495
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the principles that we talked about today are in these books.

01:41:15.216 --> 01:41:19.202
[SPEAKER_01]: Also Rob Jones wrote a book called Put Your Legs on.

01:41:19.322 --> 01:41:21.626
[SPEAKER_01]: Also Dave Burke wrote a book called Need to Lead.

01:41:22.487 --> 01:41:23.489
[SPEAKER_01]: So we got plenty of books for it.

01:41:23.549 --> 01:41:24.991
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got kids books where your kid books.

01:41:25.552 --> 01:41:27.595
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got some warrior kid podcasts coming back at you.

01:41:27.675 --> 01:41:28.196
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on.

01:41:28.216 --> 01:41:31.100
[SPEAKER_01]: Go live with some jockel with some warrior kid podcasts.

01:41:31.241 --> 01:41:32.803
[SPEAKER_01]: Ask Uncle Jake's going down.

01:41:32.783 --> 01:41:37.909
[SPEAKER_01]: Also don't forget about a Ryan Manions book things my brother used to say check that out.

01:41:37.929 --> 01:41:40.352
[SPEAKER_01]: It's great kids book Also, we have Ashlam front.

01:41:40.373 --> 01:41:42.455
[SPEAKER_01]: We teach these leadership principles that we talk about today.

01:41:42.675 --> 01:41:44.998
[SPEAKER_01]: We teach him Teach him inside your organization.

01:41:45.379 --> 01:41:48.663
[SPEAKER_01]: We Can spend months reorganization.

01:41:48.683 --> 01:42:00.698
[SPEAKER_01]: We can spend a day with your organization anything in between So check out Ashlam front dot com if you need help inside your organization also check out extreme ownership dot com It is our leadership training online

01:42:00.678 --> 01:42:02.520
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have access to it.

01:42:02.620 --> 01:42:04.343
[SPEAKER_01]: You can go on there and check out some of the courses.

01:42:04.883 --> 01:42:08.988
[SPEAKER_01]: Check out some of the live interactions that we do every week.

01:42:09.629 --> 01:42:10.030
[SPEAKER_01]: So there you go.

01:42:10.130 --> 01:42:13.094
[SPEAKER_01]: Check out extremeownership.com for that.

01:42:13.294 --> 01:42:16.758
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you want help out service members, active and retired, you want to help out their families.

01:42:16.778 --> 01:42:19.382
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to help out gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, mama Lee.

01:42:19.482 --> 01:42:21.224
[SPEAKER_01]: She's got an amazing charity organization.

01:42:21.765 --> 01:42:23.847
[SPEAKER_01]: It is America's mighty warriors.

01:42:23.967 --> 01:42:26.871
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to help or you want to donate or you want to get involved,

01:42:26.851 --> 01:42:49.602
[SPEAKER_01]: go to america's mighty warrior's dot org also check out heroes and horses dot org and then of course my brother Jimmy Mays got an organization beyond the brotherhood dot org if you want to check us out on social media we're on there i'm at jockelwillink echo's at echo charms you can check out all the stuff at jockel.com just be careful because there's an algorithm there be nice if you could program your own algorithm

01:42:50.206 --> 01:42:51.248
[SPEAKER_01]: But I guess you would have to do that.

01:42:51.288 --> 01:42:56.417
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you'd have to manually do it, but they wouldn't accept you to manually do it because you're not as interested.

01:42:56.878 --> 01:42:58.801
[SPEAKER_01]: They wouldn't know what you're really interested in.

01:42:58.821 --> 01:42:59.943
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna be this one.

01:43:00.023 --> 01:43:01.366
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's gonna be disciplined.

01:43:01.726 --> 01:43:07.015
[SPEAKER_00]: I wish you could like down vote something that you don't wanna see anymore of.

01:43:07.056 --> 01:43:07.536
[SPEAKER_02]: You can.

01:43:07.797 --> 01:43:08.177
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

01:43:08.198 --> 01:43:09.620
[SPEAKER_02]: But even that takes discipline.

01:43:09.820 --> 01:43:12.766
[SPEAKER_02]: Like who has the heart to down vote it without you?

01:43:12.786 --> 01:43:13.106
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you say?

01:43:13.126 --> 01:43:14.188
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a thumbs down.

01:43:14.810 --> 01:43:18.976
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then I think you can click on, in fact, you came click on something.

01:43:18.996 --> 01:43:20.278
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even have to see it.

01:43:20.338 --> 01:43:21.800
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't say not interested in this.

01:43:22.000 --> 01:43:22.300
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

01:43:22.320 --> 01:43:23.322
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we'll stop doing it.

01:43:24.003 --> 01:43:24.103
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

01:43:24.123 --> 01:43:25.064
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll need to get into that.

01:43:25.264 --> 01:43:26.907
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember the time I corrected?

01:43:27.127 --> 01:43:27.928
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was a good deal.

01:43:27.968 --> 01:43:31.093
[SPEAKER_02]: Dave Berks search page or I corrupted it.

01:43:31.573 --> 01:43:31.793
[SPEAKER_02]: How?

01:43:32.314 --> 01:43:37.241
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you search for like some wonky stuff and then it pops out and then you click on it and watch it.

01:43:37.261 --> 01:43:37.461
[SPEAKER_02]: I did it.

01:43:38.403 --> 01:43:43.770
[SPEAKER_01]: So jammed, you were like, whatever, but you can do you showing it to like, oh,

01:43:43.750 --> 01:43:45.392
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you buy accident to do it on purpose?

01:43:45.412 --> 01:43:46.634
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm purposeful.

01:43:46.654 --> 01:43:47.375
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know it's bad.

01:43:47.855 --> 01:43:52.421
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was a small part of a greater joke that we were doing.

01:43:52.681 --> 01:43:56.626
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was like, you know how you be like, hey, let me see your search page.

01:43:56.646 --> 01:44:00.211
[SPEAKER_02]: It kind of says a lot about your personality.

01:44:01.573 --> 01:44:03.555
[SPEAKER_02]: And then so I go on his search.

01:44:03.575 --> 01:44:05.357
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, oh, yeah, he doesn't know even the deal.

01:44:05.718 --> 01:44:06.559
[SPEAKER_02]: He's hardly ever on something.

01:44:06.579 --> 01:44:07.460
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just got jet planes.

01:44:07.480 --> 01:44:08.341
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I did.

01:44:08.381 --> 01:44:09.383
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like jet planes.

01:44:09.443 --> 01:44:12.947
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, I don't know some like family dad stuff.

01:44:12.927 --> 01:44:16.656
[SPEAKER_02]: So and I changed it and he was like what the hell is all matter?

01:44:16.676 --> 01:44:16.936
[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever.

01:44:16.956 --> 01:44:28.764
[SPEAKER_02]: Not really man, but you know, and then I'm I'm pretty sure he's the one who told me that where you can just down But I don't actually know us and she'll told me you can down here, but I'm sure that's how he fixed it But yeah, I can do that down below down vote stuff man.

01:44:28.844 --> 01:44:29.586
[SPEAKER_02]: Curate you think

01:44:29.566 --> 01:44:32.552
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're on there, um, don't spend too much time on there.

01:44:33.074 --> 01:44:34.497
[SPEAKER_01]: We're also, um, thanks.

01:44:35.278 --> 01:44:35.759
[SPEAKER_01]: We're thankful.

01:44:35.960 --> 01:44:39.808
[SPEAKER_01]: We're thankful to all military personnel and tonight, especially to our allies.

01:44:40.149 --> 01:44:46.883
[SPEAKER_01]: And in this case, specifically our Canadian allies who have fought in blood and died alongside us.

01:44:46.863 --> 01:44:48.666
[SPEAKER_01]: for the cost of freedom.

01:44:49.207 --> 01:44:59.507
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, thanks to a police law enforcement, fire fighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, board patrol, secret service, as well as all of the first responders who fight and serve, hear at home, to keep us safe.

01:44:59.868 --> 01:45:03.114
[SPEAKER_01]: And for everyone else out there, let's remember these lessons.

01:45:04.236 --> 01:45:06.981
[SPEAKER_01]: For Mayor Commodore, Colonel Leonard Birchall.

01:45:08.648 --> 01:45:18.404
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the way that you purport yourself, your behavior, your appearance, your manorisms, and even more important in your integrity, your selflessness.

01:45:18.885 --> 01:45:25.335
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the foundations of pride, but more important than the foundations of self-discipline.

01:45:25.796 --> 01:45:34.470
[SPEAKER_01]: The standards that you set, the standards that you hold, that's where discipline is originated.

01:45:34.450 --> 01:45:45.388
[SPEAKER_01]: And it applies to everything that you do, every little thing that you do, every minute of the day, that is the standard, that is the discipline.

01:45:47.452 --> 01:45:48.574
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's all we've got for tonight.

01:45:49.035 --> 01:45:51.058
[SPEAKER_01]: And until next time, the Zecco and Jocco.